<p>Yes, I think in a previous long post I mentioned ~$5k more would still keep a good balance.</p>
<p>I asked my brother if dorms for first years all cost the same, and he said no, they all cost different amounts (singles, doubles, suites, and maybe even location). At first I thought UVA charging the same for all dorms was stupid, but I think maybe charging different amounts for dorms is contributing to the class segregation there. I’ve never felt like I fit in more with OOS students (in fact, all of my close friends are from rural VA!), whereas all of my brother’s friends at UMich are OOS and went to private schools and so on. I mean he only knows 1 person there who is actually from Michigan!! Which isn’t the case at all at UVA. (And clearly isn’t something we were raised with – my brother and I are very close so I wouldn’t say our personalities are different or anything). And I would hate for UVA to become like that. I certainly can’t tell where anyone is from based on looking at them, and I don’t feel like classes or other social groups I have been a member of were lopsided. The only segregation that I knew existed was Old Dorms vs New Dorms (and then greek vs non-greek) mentality, and that has been eliminated as far as I know, and that had nothing to do with OOS vs IS?</p>
<p>I agree it would be more of a poor rova vs rich everyone else mentality (with some exceptions of oos and nova students on financial aid, and more wealthy students from strange places in rova).</p>
<p>Blue Iguana’s post (#25) shows a $12,000 difference in tuition between UVA and UMich. But that doesn’t match the numbers I have. According to what I found on their websites, 2010-11 OOS tuition is $34,927 at UMich, and $33,782 at UVA. The $48K figure for UMich must include room, board, and other expenses. 2010-11 tuition at UNC will be $24,736 (although it may go up by $750), which makes it considerably more affordable than either UMich or UVA.</p>
<p>I have a daughter at UNC, and my second daughter is a rising HS senior. She does not go to private school, and the higher cost of both UVA and UMich almost take them off the table for us - particularly since they both offer virtually no merit aid (unless you hit the lottery and get a Jefferson, that is).</p>
<p>Well UMich tuition is interesting because there are separate rates based on whether you are “lower” (fresh/soph) or “upper” (junior/senior/underclassman with ap credits). so my brother had to pay upper tuition with all of his credits this year – they sent him a back bill a month ago charging him for more for the past 2-3 semesters when he decided to go through with getting credit for his his ap and transfer credits!!! heartless. their housing situation is also different as i said earlier; basically it would be the equivalent of first years living in copeley here where he lived (the fact that we are outraged by that possibility shows enough why uva should not expand, because what other choice will they have once the finish taking over gooch dillard and hereford… bice?? lambeth?? and then onward to copeley and so on), and he didn’t want to live on grounds after that (who can blame him!!). so off grounds is another expense of course. i’m not sure what his total is, i don’t ask about that. but at UVA i lived on grounds for all 4 years, and it was just under $20k per semester. thankfully my grad tuition is actually cheaper, my upcoming sis bill is wonderful. =) (though the cost of living off grounds in a single is probably off setting that over all…). unsurprisingly uva wouldn’t start giving me the huge grad tuition discount until this year, even though i finished my degree last year… at least they aren’t backbilling me like my brother!!</p>
<p>^^HoComom - I double checked my information, not wanting to continue to quote something that was incorrect, and apologize if I had overstated the difference in error. </p>
<p>The cost quoted for Michigan was the total cost of attendance. I did NOT check UVa’s cost of attendance. I used the number that others had given. I took for granted it was total COA.</p>
<p>I was incorrect on the COA for OOS UVa and I would like to sincerely apologize. I should have checked to make sure I was comparing the same thing. I always look at the total COA. It did not occur to me that the fee quoted for UVa OOS students was not the total COA, but the tuition only.</p>
<p>Again, I would like to offer my apologies to all. I strive to offer positive movement on this board. In this thread it was obviously as a Virginia resident and prospective parent. To be honest, even if I didn’t have a student applying, Virginian’s tend to be very proud of their state universities. They are not only places to study but places that hold great historical significance. As residents we feel it is also a part of our history.</p>
<p>FWIW, the following are links to both universities COA (tuition/room/board/books/other) to clarify where I have taken my information:</p>
<p>There is no need to apologize, blueiguana. It is a rare person who hasn’t made an error here. It is an even rarer person who admits it. I appreciate those links. </p>
<p>It is interesting to read about the UM rich OOS/poor IS. That is something I definitely hadn’t considered. D would have been a fish out of water there if that is the case as she would have been a poor OOS. </p>
<p>hazelorb, when you discuss rova, in your estimation is that everywhere but the metro areas (Richmond, Tidewater, NoVa)?</p>
<p>Blueiguana, no need for the profuse apology. Sorry if I sounded critical. I just wanted to correct the information, because I didn’t want other people on the board to have information that was off by a significant amount of $. Close to $10K, which is a lot of money - maybe enough to make someone choose one school over another.</p>
<p>Well technically ROVA consists of everything but NOVA (down to about Fredericksburg). Even someone who lives in Opal/Remington just south of Gainesville is really not in NOVA anymore. I do know people from Richmond and VA Beach who definitely aren’t poor, but they’re not the same as those TJ friends of mine. The same can be said about lots of people from NOVA who aren’t the TJ type as well. But even then, the difference between those more middle class ers and the rural VA folks (I’m talking about people near the NC border, near Roanoke, and off of 29/64/81 in various other rural places) is outstanding. It is not that they are necessarily poor, but the cost of living in those places is so much lower that coming to CVille really accentuates it, whereas the cost of living in NOVA is more than CVille. And some of them are poor as defined by the government as well. Of course there also exist OOS students on financial aid, but it is far less common.</p>
<p>I think that it is just that the majority of NOVA students are more well off than the majority of students coming from Richmond of Tidewater (I would consider it 50/50 odds there at most, versus maybe 75/25 odds for NOVA). And a lot of the lower income NOVA students are transfers as well from what I understand and what I have seen. It is unfortunate but the rich parents are the ones buying their kids the SAT classes and tutors up there so that just in itself will give them a distinct advantage in their grades and test scores. I mean everyone usually thinks of test scores; I tutor this kid down here in precalc (soon to include SAT and calc) for $25/hr, I went on spring break for 2 weekends and then he did the same, and in that month he completely started failing again. He is only passing that class because his mom is paying $100/mo for the tutoring, and same with him taking calculus-- I mean I really advised her against that (I even thought his schedule this year was too rough… He has 1 other regular tutor!!) but she figures she can pay for him to have the opportunity to have calculus on his transcript. I mean she does not outright say it but that is what happened! It really bothers me when I think about it, but I just try to think that I am helping this one student, who I can see personally (not some abstract other student), and now have a good friendship with, learn math. And of course the money is great. That’s why I never charge for private CS tutoring – first of all it would feel really fishy to me to be a TA and offer private tutoring, but then also it is unfair, what if you need private help you are out of luck if you are not rich and just have to go to office hours with 100 other students? So I let students buy me a meal, with their plus dollars if that is what it comes to (it actually never has which is great). Anyways my point is it really would explain how many of the lower income NOVA kids come from the guaranteed transfer agreement, they can obviously handle the work in community college but can’t compete with the rich students at their school due to the parents buying the stats. I hope that answered your question…</p>
<p>And I agree that message about being wrong was really cordial, no one held it against you! We’re all here to learn something. Just a while ago I learned that I could have had dry cleaning by bringing it to the bookstore! Wish I had known that four years ago… But I still wonder if I would have done it… I am very paranoid and possessive about things I own. And many of the links I share are things I shared 1, 2, 3 years ago. Things may have changed since then (I am still waiting for new data on the county quotas) so I’m glad when someone brings up something new! Especially these articles. :)</p>
<p>^^ HoComom - You didn’t sound critical at all! I am glad you caught it so I could correct it and provide links to the correct information. I felt so bad I had cited that figure more than once. When I am wrong, I try to stand up and take responsibility. It was most certainly a significant amount. I would never want to pass on information that could dissuade anyone from choosing one school from another, even if it was unintentional.</p>
<p>This forum is a great source of information. I honestly was embarrassed that I didn’t fact check. Lesson learned. I enjoy being a part of the CC community, and being able to take part in the UVa forum. I appreciate the understanding by all. :)</p>
<p>As an OOS parent, I went into this with my eyes open with regard to paying relatively high OOS tuition, so don’t get me wrong. However, I object a little bit to the blithe assumption made by some here that it would be no big deal for OOS students to pay a lot more- sorry, but for many it would be, and as a practical matter we are now committed to the school, i.e., stuck. Is this fair? Also, while you consider soaking only the OOS students for all the increases because IS tuition at UVa is already so high, consider these institutions (admittedly somewhat closer to my neck of the woods):</p>
<p>U of Pittsburgh $14,154 (IS Tuition and Fees)
U of Vermont $14,036<br>
U of NH $13,672
UConn $10,416
U of Delaware $10,208</p>
<p>For these same schools, of course, OOS tuition is SIGNIFICANTLY lower- the UVa IS vs. OOS tuition disparity already is a noticeable outlier. It would seem to me that it would be practical to raise rates for EVERYONE to some extent, and close the need gap up again with increased financial aid as required by the individual.</p>
<p>Weldon - This is certainly a well-founded POV, though you don’t need validation to know that. I do want to point out that my previous posts yesterday suggesting OOS tuition increase was based on incorrect information. I later realized my error in what I thought was the total COA attendance and apologized. I’m sure this contributed to the ‘blithe assumption’ you were feeling.</p>
<p>This is an issue that any current and/or prospective family, alumni, as well as the UVa administration is going to struggle with. There is no ‘easy’ answer.</p>
<p>Weldon, none of the schools you mentioned are in the same academic league as UVA.
But it is a VERY valid point that students already attending at the current price could suffer if tuition is raised. It might be worthwhile to have some kind of give and take available through AccessUVA – I’m sure plenty of OOS students could foot the bill, but for the ones already in attendance who can’t, maybe something could be worked out.</p>
<p>oldUVAgrad- I believe you are quoting total cost of attendance, whereas I was referring only to tuition and fees.
hazel- the point you are making about the academic standing of UVa is certainly true, but I’m not sure what position that supports here. On the one hand, you could infer that OOS students aren’t willing to pay as much elsewhere as OOS UVa because the other schools are not as desirable. My point, on the other hand, is that apparently Pitt, Vermont, etc. IS strudents are willing (and in fact required!) to pay MORE to attend those same lesser-brand schools. So possibly the answer is that IS students at UVa are getting a little too much of a bargain as well (I’m ducking my head now!!!)</p>
<p>PS- I was an in-state UVa student in my day. My son’s tuition is already a staggering 2100% higher than mine was. Admittedly I’m pretty old - but not that old.</p>
<p>Well my point is just that all of my friends from ROVA would NOT have been able to attend UVA if tuition were higher – they would have gone to a less prestigious school in state, which is a real shame (you can’t pay = you can’t get a prestigious education even in state?!). The one with the least loans has $10,000 and was a transfer after 2nd year. She has at most half as much as my other friends who attended all 4 years, in part because she worked for housing and so got her housing for free (a nice $5k+ discount, include the mealplan and it is more like $6k+ - every year!!!). Increasing in state tuition would eliminate these students from attending UVA which undoes all of the work to recruit these students in the first place!!!</p>
<p>^But if you increased tuition across the board, you could use a portion of the additional proceeds to increase financial aid to those who can’t pay. That is, in effect, those who can’t handle the full cost would pay the same amount as before, regardless- they’d just get increased aid to make up the difference (hopefully in grants not loans). The incremental income for the school would come only from those students (both out-of-state AND in-state) who could afford the full increase (giving, as you have already so generously offered, special consideration to the needs of those already enrolled and financially committed). My motive for providing a comparison with in-state tuitions for some other schools was to suggest what kind of “ceiling room” might be available to do a tuition increase on the in-state side FOR THOSE WHO CAN PAY. Of course I wouldn’t expect a poor Pennsylvanian to pay over $14,000 in tuition to Pitt any more than a poor Virginian should pay nearly $10,000 to UVa. But say you raised everybody’s tuition by $1000-$2000 (more affected students = a bigger pot with the least pain to any one group). Then you offered that much more in grants to those who can’t pay. There would still be a big pot of funds left over to help address the school’s budget problems. Could many OOS families afford $36 K in tuition instead of $34K? Sure, but you and I both know there are a lot of Virginians (particularly NOVAns, if you want) who likewise could affort $12K instead of $10K. And those who couldn’t, wouldn’t be affected at all.
You could certainly adopt the alternative policy of chasing out the out-of-staters- keep heaping tuition increases on them alone until you kill the goose that lays the golden egg, so to speak. As has been metioned above, and as you yourself probably know, UVa is already at a point where many (if not most!) out-of-state admits are qualified to find better financial aid packages at highly-rated private schools, and you may see an acceleration of such students going elsewhere if UVa continues in this direction.</p>
<p>But then the question is, will they get more revenue by raising just OOS tuition by more, or by raising both by less? If they raised OOS by a lot AND IS by some, there would be too much backlash I believe… AND I believe many poorer IS students would be too sticker shocked to even consider UVA (some would be told they can compare financial aid packages and others would not.) – again, tuition is not locked for 4 years and neither is financial aid, and these are considerations smart students will make and possibly decide against UVA. I still believe it would be a mistake to raise IS tuition more.</p>
<p>Hazelorb, with all due respect you’re making too much out of this. U-Va is the only state institution in Virginia that’s currently committed to meeting 100 percent of a student’s demonstrated need. No one contemplates that this would change if tuition went up. Basically what you’d be doing is asking those who can pay to pay a little more, and I’m betting most would – you’d have to push pretty far before U-Va would stop being considered a bargain by many, many state residents. Plus I’d have to think that if U-Va did this it would cause a ripple effect – William and Mary would likely be the first to match U-Va’s increase and the other bigger names (Tech, JMU) wouldn’t be too far behind. In the end the disparity wouldn’t be that great and U-Va would still be the bargain of the bunch because it has the best financial aid.</p>
<p>I suspect your ROVA friends wouldn’t transfer to Radford if their tuition at U-Va went up. Also worth noting that VCU just raised its tuition dramatically and from what I understand the students aren’t rushing the exits.</p>
<p>A lot of what’s been proposed on this thread is a “robbing Peter to pay Paul” / “redistribution of wealth” solution. There will come a point where your middle class/upper middle class that don’t qualify for FA are going to eventually throw their hands up in revolt and choose to go to their own state flagship over privates or prestigious OOS publics. I mean seriously…45-55K per year for an education is proposterous in today’s economy. This group is being affected IMO more than any other. They’re the ones who are making tremendous lifestyle changes, taking out second mortgages, cashing in their 401s etc. What’s going to happen to the state of higher education when the income from this group starts to dwindle? Many more kids than normal from my daughter’s private prep chose to go to one of our state schools or relatively reasonably priced OOS publics’ honors programs (LSU, UA, UGA, USC, etc.) – this is a trend that I feel will continue.</p>
And many of the links I share are things I shared 1, 2, 3 years ago. Things may have changed since then (I am still waiting for new data on the county quotas) so I’m glad when someone brings up something new! Especially these articles. :)</p>