<p>There are injectible versions of meds ( called depot meds) that last up to a month for severely ill non-compliant patients. But not too many people use them, and in this day and age it is very difficult to require patients to take meds. This is the fine line we walk between protecting the public and allowing free will.</p>
<p>tsdad,
I don’t necessarily assume he “went unnoticed” in his local schools. But clearly what was done about whatever was noticed & whatever was reported (not necessarily to be equated) was insufficient and/or temporary on the part of the key adults in the mix.</p>
<p>Btw, I don’t have particular criticisms of VA as opposed to other locations, as I’m not in a position to make those comparisons. For my own part, I’m merely stating that it is well known that many districts and States sweep mental illness under the rug by refusing to confront the need for contiguous treatment, on - or off-site, and educational programs specific to such needs (whether such programs are on or off site). I base that information not only on my own experience in my State, but on similar & parallel experiences by CC parent posters in different States.</p>
<p>This kid flew under the radar for the past 18 or months - after a short period of flying over the radar (Nov-Dec 05) - there is no real way (that we know of) of telling what his status has been recently - wether on medication - wether compliant - whatever. </p>
<p>As sick as his acts were this week - he obviously was also very bright - to be able to put together a plan such as he did - to get thru public school - into college takes some brains - even if the diagnosis of some form of autism is real - very high functioning. </p>
<p>It is very possible that his family really had no clue what resources were available for him once they came to the US - language barriers and cultural differences - I think - have a very big bearing on what happened to this guy. Coming from their homeland to MI - then to VA - I can certainly understand how/if he was lost in the shuffle. If he maintained things in school - even with the social decompensation - he well could have been overlooked - and considering his age as well when he came to the US - and then moved to VA. His family - not being financially secure - may not have had any options regarding him being treated as well.</p>
<p>Remember that his Korean relatives said he was very ill from a very early age. His 85 year old auntie says that the family knew he was autistic before the age of 8. His parents got a diagnosis of autism at a US hospital when they arrived.</p>
<p>The question is: what did they do with that diagnosis? As he was not meeting eye contact and not expressing himself appropriately, both Korean and American primary school teachers would have recognized his initial disability as autism. The wider social question would be: who decided to ‘mainstream’ him in Virginia public schools? And why did Virginia public schools allow him to matriculate?</p>
<p>There is a chance that he didn’t ‘slip through the cracks’. There is a chance that the Chos insisted their ‘disabled’ son be mainstreamed because he was able to do the academic work. I find that many new Asian immigrants are very clued in to the intricacies of US law–esp tax law and social benefit policies. </p>
<p>It would be interesting to hear comment from his primary school teachers–and his high school GC.</p>
<p>I can’t think of another instance in this country where an autistic person has killed another person. Certainly the person in this case should have gotten more rehabilitative and mental health interventions, but I don’t know that all autistic kids should be kept out of the regular ed classroom over this one incident, however tragic.</p>
<p>If a child’s disability creates problems in social interaction, I’m not sure that limiting that interaction by isolating him in the special ed room is going to make it better. The piece that seems to have been missing or inadequate was rehabilitative services (? 504 modifications) to help him succeed socially in the regular classroom instead of just academically. </p>
<p>I don’t know whether it did or didn’t in this case, but mainstreaming shouldn’t mean that the child and family have to give up all other services.</p>
<p>Since he got into Va Tech, obviously Cho was very intelligent. His family – who appears to have come to the U.S. to have a better chance at escaping poverty – may have insisted on his being mainstreamed so as to give him the best chance of going to college and being able to get a well paying job that allowed him to benefit from his intellectual strengths.</p>
<p>I’ve seen Asian students whose parents insisted for the same reason that their kids be mainstreamed out of English as a second language classes. The Asian students whom I have met whose parents made such decisions did very well, despite the initial difficulties of having to take classes that they didn’t understand, and being the object of some teasing from peers. Some ended up in Ivies even though they came to the U.S. in middle school.</p>
<p>“I don’t know that all autistic kids should be kept out of the regular ed classroom over this one incident, however tragic.”</p>
<p>Well I didn’t say that he killed because he was autistic (if we was). However, what I will say is that in my region I have never seen an autistic child successfully mainstreamed in a K-8 situation, for example. I happen to have seen only the more severe ends of the spectrum in the classroom, and there is no question that the mainstream classroom cannot accommodate those cases.</p>
<p>Cheers…‘‘Remember that his Korean relatives said he was very ill from a very early age. His 85 year old auntie says that the family knew he was autistic before the age of 8. His parents got a diagnosis of autism at a US hospital when they arrived’’…</p>
<p>I would certainly like to see your ‘‘proof’’ about this info - I have read the same articles as you have - his elderly relative did not say he was ‘‘very ill’’ - but different - odd - quiet - they did not know he was austic - diagnosed.</p>
<p>I am having an issue with your vengence towards this family - and the VA school system as well… but hey. I think you have overlooked alot in your statements with some lack of understanding regarding the cultural differences of this family - and are assuming an awful lot. Yes - his sister was able to manuver herself thru school to achieve an end result of attending a very elite college - but that does by no means that the parents had the capabilities - or knew of the resources - that were available to them. OR - they may have ‘pushed him thru’ - hoping he would become more ‘normal’ in the process.</p>
<p>The cultural differences regarding a ‘boy-child’ coud have alot to do with what this family did - or didn’t do. I think this really needs to be considered - rather than blaming a school system on the woes of this guy and his family. Flame me if you choose - but I think you are off base</p>
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<p>Cho’s case was different from a person with severe autism, which is what you’ve typically seen. And I guess it will be awhile if ever, before we find out what supports he got in the mainstream classroom.</p>
<p>What kind of special supports does your region typically give for autistic kids in K-8 regular classrooms, if you don’t mind my asking?</p>
<p>I saw an autistic student successfully maintstreamed in our private Christian K thru 12 school. The other kids were taught to be kind. He was treated with kindness and loving compassion. He is a brilliant student and will do fine. No bullying. No hard hearted treatment. Were there uncomfortable moments? Yes. Did the kids learn something- yes. It was a gift for the other students to be in the same classroom with this student. They learned patience, kindness, tolerance. It was a privilege to have this student teach us how to be human.</p>
<p>I don’t think that any official psychiatric diagnosis of Cho has yet been reported.</p>
<p>My thoughts are that even if he was autistic, he may have also been paranoid schizophrenic. It’s possible to have dual diagnoses. For instance, I have a friend who’s developmentally delayed adult daughter also is schizophrenic.</p>
<p>Whatever was wrong with Cho, it would have been a very difficult for mental health professionals, family and educators to have coped with. I also wonder whether Cho had health insurance before he went to college because psychiatric treatment is very expensive.</p>
<p>The immigrant Asian students whom I know from places like Korea often were always the translators for their parents, whose accents often were extremely difficult for native English speakers to understand. It’s hard enough for parents to communicate with educators and therapists when a child’s behavior is unusual. It would be even more difficult if that communication had to be made through another child.</p>
<p>The language barriers, cultural differences and probable shortage of money and time that the parents had due to their working so hard to economically survive in the U.S. (including sending their kids to excellent public schools in an area with expensive housing), all would have added to the difficulty of Cho’s obtaining effective mental health help.</p>
<p>I feel so sorry for his family. Horrible as it would be to have one’s child killed the way that Cho killed people at VT, it would be even harder if the killer were one’s child or sibling.</p>
<p>
My son had a similar experience in our local public schools. For 13 years there (K-12) he had two autistic kids (both at the severe end of the spectrum) in his class. K-8 he always had one of the two boys in his own classroom (it’s a small school system). I think it was a privilege for the kids and a wonderful learning experience. It worked that way more with one of the boys than the other - as the second boy was just simply so much in his own world that he (appeared to) have no sense of how the others were relating to him or treating him at all.</p>
<p>Neither of these two boys was really in class with my S at the high school level, as he was honors/AP and they were not academically capable really at all. Since I have no experience with severe autism combined with academic high achievement, I can’t really picture it. Neither of these boys could have matriculated at University. And while they were “successfully maintstreamed” in some senses, they were at a totally different level academically than most of the other kids. The first boy grew by leaps and bounds in social interaction, but is still identifiably at the severe end of the spectrum. The second boy remained (as far as we on the outside could see) in his own world.</p>
<p>Violence and autism? I’m not sure that a family knowing their child is autistic (if they did) means we should hold them accountable for what he did.</p>
<p>Obviously I (we) do not have enough information to really know, but the only “autistic” characteristics reported for Cho are failure to make eye contact and apparent inability/difficulty with speech. But there is no report of other autistic qualities, such as self-stimulating behavior – and no indication whatsoever of communication problems standing in the way of his schooling, which means that whatever was going on with his speech, apparently his receptive language was acceptable. Some of the adult characteristics are NOT consistent with autism – for example, there was an article today reporting that Cho had told his roommates that he had an imaginary girlfriend named Jelly who was a supermodel from outer space. Autistic individuals tend to be very literal in their use of language and concrete in their thinking – so an imaginary girlfriend would be an indication of delusional (or wishful) thinking, not autism. Also, the level of deception involved in the planning of the shooting, purchasing of equipment, etc. is not consistent with autism – autistics tend to not to worry about or be aware of what others are thinking, so they would tend to do a poor job of concealing evidence of criminal behavior or intent.</p>
<p>It’s pretty tough to know what is wrong with a kid who doesn’t talk, but my guess would be some very early and deep psychiatric issue, perhaps one that doesn’t fit an easy diagnostic criteria - rather than autism. </p>
<p>So while it may have looked like autism, I’d almost think that the end result negates the early diagnosis, or comes close to it. If it is autism, then it autism + something else, and the something-else is what led to this incident.</p>
<p>The 85 year old aunt stated that Cho was diagnosed as an 8 year old as autistic by a US hospital–confirming long held beliefs (and possibly diagnosis?) by his family living in Korea. His autism was an open matter amongst his family.</p>
<p>I would very curious to know what the Korean school system options were–and whether that was a contributing factor to their move to America–which allows ‘mainstreaming’. Obviously the parents are birght–and both children were very very bright. There are reports that Cho started out as an engineering student and had to ‘drop’ to English because he could not manage the engineering program.</p>
<p>The autism diagnosis, made by a US hospital, would go a long way toward explaining his speech delay and difficulty–as well as his inability to make eye contact and friends of any sort. Students reported that he would ride his bike in continuous circles.</p>
<p>I agree that mainstreaming can have benefits–but this case exposes the terrible underbelly of that arrangement–starting with the peer abuse and ending with the slaughter of 32 college students. </p>
<p>Correct me for ignorance, but I do not believe that violent psychosis can be attributed to autism. He must have had another mental disorder on top of the autism? The subsequent mental disorder diagnosis made by a Virginia hospital has not been made public although it rightly had a tag of “danger to himself and others.”</p>
<p>Also, don’t flame me, but in my experience, children cannot be ‘taught’ to accomodate extreme personality deviations. They can be ‘taught’ to fake an acceptance but they will not take those children into their social circles --unless forced. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to socialize normally with a person who cannot read social cues. Children have no patience for it and put such children aside unless urged otherwise. I know that my extro-verted, super smart, super athletic, good-looking brother was unable to make a single same-sex friend during his childhood–even though he had three brothers and a flock of female admirers. It is from that experience that I came to realize the importance and significance of early social ability.</p>
<p>Left to their own devices, children would not think of making the effort–says the mom who insisted her popular children adopt those in need of friends.</p>
<p>Personally, I am not sure the disabled children are fooled by the kind efforts–they are teased when adults aren’t looking, they are not invited to join close groups of friends–and even when they are–they cannot sustain the friendships in a normal fashion–all of which is apparent to them.</p>
<p>I also do not believe that autism is related to violent behavior. I think violence is more often attributed to paranoid schizophrenia. It is my understanding that the earliest signs of paranoid schizophrenia usually appear between the ages of 15 and 34. Although there is no cure, the disorder can be controlled with medications.</p>
<p>It is possible tha this guy had an even rarer condition-- childhood schizophrenia <a href=“http://www.schizophrenia.com/family/childszsym.htm[/url]”>http://www.schizophrenia.com/family/childszsym.htm</a>
While we have not read that he hallucinated, he also didnt talk much, so if he hallucinated they might not have known.</p>
<p>It is not common for for the autism spectrum disorders to have the kind of longstanding rage and delusions that this guy did.</p>
<p>Misdiagnosed as autism when he was a child kn Korea and an 8 year old in the US?</p>
<p>I know a family who adopted a boy with childhood onset schizophrenia. It was unbelievabley sad and horrible for the whole family.</p>
<p>That could easily happen. Autism isn’t a thing you can test for like strep throat. It’s a diagnosis based on a cluster of behavioral traits, traits that can overlap with a number of other conditions. Based on the vast increase in the autism rate lately, I suspect that there are kids getting misdiagnosed with autism. </p>
<p>Schizophrenia is probably under-diagnosed. Schizophrenics usually experience depression (and depression can have psychotic features) so it’s not unheard of for schizophrenic patients to be treated for depression and not diagnosed with anything else till something extreme happens to call attention to it.</p>
<p>While people can have multiple valid diagnoses, I’ve also seen the same person get diagnoses that contradict each other. “Bipolar” on one hospitalization, “Bipolar ruled out” on another.</p>
<p>ETA: Jym I think you may be right about childhood schizophrenia being the best answer so far. It would fit with him having the social interaction style of a person with autism and the delusions of a person with paranoid schizophrenia.</p>
<p>There’s another explanation for why he was allowed to continue on as a mainstream student–misdiagnosed as a high functioning autistic student.</p>
<p>Isn’t it interesting that only Nikki Giovanni chucked him out of her classroom? She’s got great instincts, apparently.</p>
<p>Tragic.</p>
<p>tsdad</p>
<p>My comments were as parent of a student in said Fairfax school system. I had an extremely bright S with an esoteric LD. Getting any kind of consideration or accommodations was a fight every year and every teacher. Even when a teacher was concerned that he was a suicide threat. I had to threaten a lawsuit even into his Junior year of HS after accommodations had been in place for 3 years. And BTW - i have a graduate degree and am very persistent. I could also afford to have the testing done outside the school and force the issue. If a child is not failing, there is very little audience for anyone requesting what is perceived as expensive resources. I cannot imagine attempting what I went through if I had limited English skills. (BTW he went on to graduate with honors from a large well regarded university and is successfully navigating a professional life. Without assistance the outcome would most probably have been very different.)</p>
<p>I believe everyone here is guessing at whatever challenges he was facing. I do not believe any official source has specified what they were. The rest are just 3rd person reports or assumptions.</p>