VA Tech shooting

<p>First of all VT does not require rec. letters (lots of schools don’t)</p>

<p>Here are some phrases one could use:
quiet thoughtful student
diligent, always turned his work in on time
very co-operative in class (= did not disrupt?)
straight A student
brings a unique perspective</p>

<p>Anyhow, who cares about who wrote his recs. and what they wrote.</p>

<p>If he was about to graduate (which we do not know) then that is pretty good to be able to accomplish in s large State School in 4 years.</p>

<p>A few random thoughts. Sorry, they are really random. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Since Cho was not a first language English speaker it would have taken a long time for any ’ social/communicative diagnosis’ to have been made upon arrival at a US public school district. If indeed autism of any type is in place, the combination of that plus the language issues would have made most of life seem unexplainable and anxiety producing. This is why many autistics are explosive- anxiety. Most of them are not aggressive, however. Autistic psychosis. Who knows.</p></li>
<li><p>Surely, just as parents of depressed and previously suicidal kids who send them off to college hope and pray this will not be an issue, his parents hoped for the same for Cho- a resolution, rather than an escalation, of issues. They even mentioned worries to suitemates, though I don’t know at what point. I am sorry, but I am not 100% convinced that he had always been docile in the past. Maybe, just not 100% convinced. No parents have crystal balls, some have well greased skills for denial. </p></li>
<li><p>There are all kinds of issues coming up about personal rights versus rights of a group in this situation. What should we all know about the vulnerability of our children related to the potentially signficant history of their dormmates and classmates? </p></li>
<li><p>Yesterday I saw Larry King interviewing 3 VT students. I thought Larry should have been ashamed of himself for the tone of voice and abrupt nature of his questioning. The discussion was in theory about the ‘overdoing’ of the networks. Instead, he asked a question a student couldn’t answer about a classmate, and then when the student was not sure, he didn;t back down. The last things these kids need is ‘aggressive questioning’- it was horrible. If I were the parents of THOSE kids, I would be giving him a piece of my mind. There are probably many other instances of this, but this was the one I saw.</p></li>
<li><p>I have found the VT students to be remarkably well spoken, composed and thoughtful. The post traumatic issues for some will be so signficant. I just hope they all get whatever help they need so that this experience does not overwhelm their potential as well.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>My bad, too lazy to read all the posts on this thread . I found in some of the interviews with his suitemates that they were a very tolerant bunch. I know my kids would have asked to be switched to another room or suite. I do feel for the person who shares a room with him now. I know my kid would be asking to be removed from the room. I just can’t imagine going back into the room where the killer shared space with you.</p>

<p>Virginia Tech is a very large state school. For both of those reasons, using letters of recommendation is problematic.</p>

<p>They accepted almost 13,000 students for their entering class last year, waitlisted over 1,000, and turned down less than 4,000 students. </p>

<p>They are a very large school and they also have to deal with the fact that only about 40% of those they accept actually enroll. </p>

<p>As a state school, they charge a modest application fee of $40, and they can’t afford to subsidize a huge admissions office to read voluminous files. </p>

<p>Public colleges also need to have a fairly transparent admissions process that they can justify to their citizens. </p>

<p>According to US News, the three “very important” factors in admissions are “rigor of curriculum,” GPA, and test scores. There is no essay and no interview.</p>

<p>Letters of recommendation are problematic for large schools with impersonal mass production admissions processes. </p>

<p>Officials are reluctant to write anything overtly negative (for fear of being sued.) And admissions file readers don’t have time for subtlety or trying to “read between the lines,” when they have 18,000 files to read and must accept the overwhelming majority.</p>

<p>It’s different for a private school that cultivates relationships with guidance counselors and accepts only a few students each year. Guidance counselors know that subtle faint praise is enough to “ding” a student without actually saying something they can get sued for. Also, if there’s anything ambiguous in the letter that might raise a red flag, highly selective private colleges will call a guidance counselor with a followup inquiry. I suspect that’s a luxury that Virginia Tech admissions staff just don’t have time for.</p>

<p>Yea…the Rabbi Jack article sums it up. And I thought I was the only one who came here and found the deep discussion of chemicals in Cho’s brain a bit too much. All the recent copycat threats and lockdowns in schools are starting to get to me though. It’s like Cho started some kind of revolution where all the depressed/angry people are finding easy access to hurt people.</p>

<p>A few points that caught my attention -

  1. He obviously suffered from some kind of speech impediment (which may have caused his overwhelming silence).
  2. A high school acquaintance told of how a teacher forced him to read out loud, threatening him with an F if he did not.</p>

<p>Most students with speech problems receive therapy services from public schools under the ADA provisions. If he had been receiving these services, there is no way a teacher would be allowed to grade him on an oral presentation (modifications would be in place). </p>

<p>So I wonder if his parents were aware of the services available (as immigrants they may not have been aware) or did they choose not to seek assistance?</p>

<p>“Most students with speech problems receive therapy services from public schools under the ADA provisions.”</p>

<p>Our experience is that students in elementary school receive therapy services, which trickles out through middle school and disappears in high school unless you are very knowledgeable about the system or have such obvious issues that require an IEP. Especially if the child is smart and is not failing. High school students rarely have modifications for “borderline” issues unless they are forced through the system and constantly monitored. A challenge even for adept parents. You have to know what to ask for, insist it be done and follow up. And high school teachers are not trained the same way elementary teachers are to be sensitive to modifications or disabilities that are not forced on them through an IEP. If there is an accommodation plan instead of an IEP you are in a constant struggle with the system. And yes, there are high school teachers that think they can “cure” the problem by making a kid perform.</p>

<p>Singersmom-</p>

<p>Nice explanation of the challenges in getting services provided in the school system. There is a book called “Negotiating the special education Maze” that also highlights these challenges. Lastly, it was only recently that the IDEA (individuals with disabilities education act) shifted its focus to using ADA guidelines, and accordingly, if a student is functioning at grade level, he or she might not qualify for services. the ADA guidelines now compare each kid the the “average person” , and if Cho was functioning academically as expected, he might not qualify for services, even if he had a speech issue.</p>

<p>BTW, I have not seen anything that clearly documents a history of a “speech impediment” per se. Is this in an article somewhere? His speech was reported to be low and gravelly when he chose to speak . On the tapes, his speech was flat, which seems more consistent with his psychiatric status.</p>

<p>Stingersmom, thank you for the explanation. Jym626, I was deducing a speech impediment from the nature of his voice on the tape, his unwillingness to speak, and the interview with the high school acquaintance who described his odd voice. I could easily be wrong, but this could explain his silence.</p>

<p>Firefly-
You have a funny typo-- I think you meant singersmom, not stingersmom :)</p>

<p>According to his family, he was non-communicative, even as a small child, but I did not get the idea that he had some speech problem per se. When he came to the states he remained extremely quiet, which some seemed to attribute to the possibility that he was embarassed about his accent. It sounded to me more like elective mutism (now called selective mutism) <a href=“Sorry! That Page Cannot Be Found”>http://www.asha.org/public/speech/disorders/Selective-Mutism.htm&lt;/a&gt; or possibly the delayed onset of language seen in the autism spectrum disorders.</p>

<p>Just wondering, cheers, what “neurological deformities” are you referring to?
I agree that Cho was clearly severly mentally ill, and had he survived and was taken through the court system, would probably have been found to be either guilty by reason of insanity,or guilty but mentally ill, and remanded to a psychiatric facility, just as Reagan’s shooter was.</p>

<p>Teachers sometimes aren’t told what accomodations have been set up for mainstreamed students or simply choose not to follow them. But reasonable accomodation or no, the teacher wasn’t following current ideas of best practices. The current thinking is that it’s counterproductive to force unwilling students to read aloud in front of a group, or to make reading a threatening experience.</p>

<p>Re Post 907:</p>

<p>Indeed, speech therapy is one of the few areas (apparently) that is actually directly acknowledged, addressed, and remedied within the school system. (i.e. there are avenues for that, within the <em>public</em> system – at least in my state & apparently in the poster’s state). Incredibly to me, it is virtually the only such aberration that is corrected, and early on. Whoever brought up the (different) Cho issue is correct: it wouldn’t exactly be in the same category, if he was manifesting as “mute”/reticent & other features of actual autism: the latter do not belong in the speech therapy department.</p>

<p>So, let’s see: the schools understand that one cannot fully participate in education without correct speech patterns (we’re not talking about accents here, of course). They also do understand that one cannot fully participate in education on an empty stomach. (Hence, free breakfast/lunch programs.)But they don’t understand that one cannot fully participate in education with a major mental deficit, untreated or undertreated emotional problem or complex; or with an inability to understand, speak & write in the language (not Cho here, but ELL students where the school merely denies that an immigrant is not learning because of language barriers & the barriers are not being rectified). No, those would not be impediments to learning. Nor would major, diagnosable (& diagnosed!)psychoabnormalities be impediments to the rest of the classroom functioning, would they?</p>

<p>I most certainly empathize with those who correctly report the difficulty of navigating the special education pathways – even for those who are native speakers, born here, educated themselves, and aggressive about self-help.
This is the product and the result of my fellow educators substituting one form of denial for another. Society used to deny by “putting away” children & adults who were not physically & emotionally & intellectually “perfect” (i.e., standard). “Can’t see those people in wheelchairs; makes us too uncomfortable, or them too uncomfortable, etc.” So now the schools merely refuse to acknowledge that anyone has a wheelchair of any kind, because we must “mainstream” everybody. Cho had a wheelchair, Major. And there are thousands of Chos in our school systems today. Shame on the education systems, plural, for looking-the-other-way at wheelchairs.</p>

<p>Additionally, the school systems plural deny by pretending they can somehow mainstream everybody while addressing all the above complex needs within limited dollars. Whom are they fooling? </p>

<p>It is not loving, and not a promotion of self-esteem, to lie to someone about a condition that will cripple them for life if not revealed & corrected. Given the Cho family’s recent statements of confusion & helplessness, it is not believable to me that anyone in authority in the school system ever sat down with them, looked them in the eye, and said the difficult words, “Your child is severely emotionally disturbed & needs treatment: the sooner the better. Here are some treatment options; here are some resources, referrals, both public & private.” That would have been a loving thing to do, not to mention a professional thing to do. And don’t tell me that his manifestations were vague or confusing. Even with the little I have picked up from relatives’ statements, etc., I as a teacher would have picked up on the probable autism early on, & would have persisted with my supervisors & other professionals until I got answers & results.</p>

<p>But the second, follow-up aspect to that – for Cho and for the rest of the students, not to mention the now deceased VTech students & profs – would have been for the school system(s) to have had the courage to say: “And until we see both a regular treatment routine, have received a psychiatric report that your son can function healthily & happily within a classroom, and can sustain that, we cannot allow him --for his sake and the sake of others in the classroom – to return to a mainstreamed classroom.” </p>

<p>Please don’t give me the song and dance about how the schools “must” take such students. They “must” because they haven’t put up a fight. They’ve gone like sheep to the slaughter. (Allusion intended.) A surgeon would never agree to be a dentist on a regular basis just because there might not be enough dentists in town, or because the surgeon’s patient didn’t have additional funds to go see a dentist. Nor, if the surgeon is ethical, would he or she fail to notice that rotting teeth could affect other aspects of the patient’s health such as the bloodstream, etc. The surgeon would be probably brutal & have a sense of urgency about informing the patient or patient’s family. Nor, in the unlikely event that the surgeon was additionally trained & licensed as a dentist, would he or she do the dental work for free. Either the surgeon would be reimbursed by a public health system or by an insurance company or directly by the patient for separate dental services. Nor would the surgeon jeopardize his or her scheduled or urgent surgeries of contracted patients to attend to ancillary dentistry of one or several other patients.</p>

<p>The previous era(s) of denial at least gave non-mainstreamable students options for an education. There were public and private special ed schools, classrooms, institutions – not all of them enlightened, many of them including inappropriately placed students, some aspects of them inhumane, marginalizing & which indeed left many of its students with low self-esteem. (!) However, the one positive aspect of them is that this was an acknowledgment of FUNDING needs, separate (ie…, additional, specialized) funding.</p>

<p>Now we simply deny these students the funds and the (full!) services. Society needs to decide how it is going to fund the needs of the mentally ill, or the public is going to continue to face the (violent) consequences of not funding that, in childhood (via separate services) and in adulthood (via public agencies & health insurance options). Educationally speaking, there are several options: separate schools (part or full day, clustered near, partly combined with mainstream schools when appropriate); separate rooms within a school (I taught in one: it worked out PERFECTLY, for the entire school, and those separated students were <em>not</em> marginalized socially; they were respected & loved by the whole school); for students with milder cases, on-site psychiatric services WITH SEPARATE (extra)GOVERNMENTAL FUNDING.</p>

<p>(P.S. I hope posters understand that I am not equating Special Ed students with the mentally ill; merely acknowledging that they are similarly underserved & that the schools are being internally dishonest about the limitations of treating every Special Ed need within a mainstreamed environment. Not realistic.)</p>

<p>

</p>

<p><a href=“http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/V/VIRGINIA_TECH_WHAT_IF?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US[/url]”>http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/V/VIRGINIA_TECH_WHAT_IF?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I’m probably using improper language jymmie but the press has never stated what mental illness was determined by the hospital. I am a lay person only but I believe the video showed a quite severe and violent psychotic break–indicating either some form of bi-polar illness or schizophrenia. Apologies for my lack of scientific terminology. Feel free to cyber-smack my fingers.</p>

<p>I’d love to see a separate thread on the value of ‘mainstreaming’ students. Anyone have any research or authority on that subject? </p>

<p>I’ve had a PM discussion with another poster about the tie-in of this horror with US immigration and though we basically disagree, I do think that the Chos might have found falso hope in the American policy of mainstreaming disabled children. The American policy of mainstreaming severely disabled children may have allowed these immigrants to believe that their severely autistic son might recover a normal life via a mainstream school education.</p>

<p>Not only did he not recover any normalcy–he was abused by healthy kids. He was a danger at all times.</p>

<p>Who knows. His illness appears to be the major concern of the Cho’s family life before they left Korea–perhaps he was denied mainstream education in Korea? Perhaps they knew he would be mainstreamed in America? Can anyone speak to the Korean policy regarding brilliant but severely autistic children? They left as he would have been rising to the social part of primary school. They had him diagnosed upon arrival in the US–in order to claim a disabled status that would prevent schools from chucking him out??</p>

<p>Also, jymmmmie, do you know of any research that indicates that Asian Americans are more prone to denial in the face of mental illness? I don’t happent o think that denial is particular to Asian families because a) I’ve lived that denial myself for a couple of decades and b) I’ve seen that denial in the most rational, intelligent academic medicine families.</p>

<p>Fairfax County Virginia, where the shooter went to school, is one of the largest, most sophisticated, and wealthiest school systems in the country. They have large numbers of limited English proficient children and as well as many receiving special education. It is inconceivable to me that Cho could have gone unnoticed by those responsible for providing disability services to students. </p>

<p>It is also very rigorous in its decision making when it comes to dealing with special needs students and often has views on the subject that differ from parents and from the Federal government.</p>

<p>Sorry, Cheers, I don’t know the literature on cultural influences on denial.
And no need to stick you hands out for a cyber knuckle-wrap. I just had no idea what “neurological deformities” you were referring to. Made me have visions of things like spina bifida and such (which of course we know he didnt have).</p>

<p>I think he may have slipped through the cracks in elementary school because teachers may have attributed his silence to his not knowing how to speak English and not realized he had some type of disability affecting his communication.</p>

<p>So would “slipping through the cracks” be attributed to a diagnosed schizophrenic student who is non compliant with medication? Significant Mental Illness and non-compliance frequently coexist.</p>

<p>HAZMAT - could well be the case all way around :(</p>