<p>I agree that damage to eggs and sperm does accumulate from environmental & other factors.</p>
<p>But wouldn’t you also agree that to have a child because you are afraid of possibly ( unlikely- according to family history) fertility problems, before you are: emotionally/physically/financially ready is a bad idea?</p>
<p>Big difference between thinking about having a kid at 18-24, and having one 10 years later.</p>
<p>I had one at 24. Turned out great. Wouldn’t change a thing.</p>
<p>
I agree this well known. Anybody who took Bio 101 in college would know that. Yes, we’re not that clueless, some of us did manage to take Bio 101. But I don’t think it affects everybody equally. I agree I would not want to have baby late in life but I certainly would not want to get married just to have a baby before 30 either just because of this. I know a lot of women have self-imposed deadline and probably scare their men away.</p>
<p>I had one at 24 also & my sister did at 20, but while her religion won’t allow her to consider that she could have chosed a different path- I wish that I hadn’t been in such a hurry to start a family & I don’t expect either of my kids to repeat my experience.</p>
<p>I guess I was actually 25 when I had her since I am 50 now & she is 25 ( oh duh)
but my pregnancy with her sister 8 years later was acturally smoother and I had a VBAC.</p>
<p>Afterall if 50 is what 30 used to be, 30 year olds must be what 18 used to be ;)</p>
<p>I wanted to quickly pop in and comment about the posts regarding adoption as an option.</p>
<p>Let’s be honest here. Adoption is not equivalent to giving birth, for many reasons. </p>
<p>First of all, with adoption, all control over your ability to have a child is completely taken from you.</p>
<p>First, and most importantly, you must have enough money to adopt. Many young people do not have the thousands of dollars that is required to adopt an infant. If you are going to petition to adopt, you have to look “financially pretty”. This means owning a home in a decent neighborhood, not being in debt, and often having enough income by one person so that the other parent can stay at home with that infant. None of these things are required to give birth to your own infant. What this means is that only people who a) Have loving relatives who will help pay or b) Oftentimes women who “marry well” get to have babies by adoption. </p>
<p>You will not only be judged by your own actions, but those of your family. </p>
<p>As I mentioned before, I came from a traditional Italian upbringing. There is a couple in my family who was never able to have children. At one point, they were considering adoption. I think that the baby was also Asian. It was made very clear to them by my grandmother that this child would not REALLY be seen the same. Consequently, they did not adopt. </p>
<p>I could just see my adoption profile: “Mother is highly educated and can stay at home with baby and work from home office. Mother is in significant debt from education. Husband is blue collar factory worker, but has decent medical insurance. He needs it, with his health issues. By the way, I am overweight. But I make homecooked meals and shop for wholesome foods!! Husband also in debt from former life threatening illness. We do own a home in the suburbs, but serious repairs are imminent. Sorry Catholic Charities, we are not religious. Warm and loving extended family — sorry, can’t help you with that one. We’d actually like to build a family of our own, the one that we were born to is hopeless. On the positive side, no we do not drink, smoke, do drugs, and have not been arrested or found guilty of child abuse.” Can I have a baby now? </p>
<p>I don’t even want to get into the idea of adopting older children, because my line of work has enabled me to know some things about the foster-adopt system that has convinced me that it is corrupt and preys on poor people.</p>
<p>“Opie–strong consideration of the procreative consequences of physical relations and romance are not mutually exclusive concepts. One might argue that it actually makes the physical aspect more cherished and ‘consequential’ on many levels”</p>
<p>I think you’ve missed my point. However are you saying all marriages are better than no marriage when intimacy is involved? </p>
<p>Maybe you were lucky, maybe your husband didn’t beat you, abuse alcohol, have sick ideas of what lovemaking is. My point is waiting for something so “special” might not really be that special after all. Sex after marriage isn’t any purer than premaritial if the person you marry is a sick individual… marriage doesn’t solve all, purify all. In some cases, it becomes a living hell. </p>
<p>To me, the idea of not knowing what good physical relations are or for that matter what bad ones are as well, leaves a person walking into marriage like a deer in headlights… </p>
<p>I have a daughter, her long term happiness with the right person is far more important her chasitity. Saving herself for some idiot who can’t or won’t provide for her physically is not my idea of the best thing for my daugther…
It why people cheat in marriage, it’s why people divorce… it just aint that great of an idea if it only has a 50% success ratio. Or do you feel that the 50% that divorce are those bad girls?</p>
<p>Haha! Saving herself for marriage? I’m pretty sure that ship has sailed. However, I do know D is more conservative than I was. </p>
<p>S is a mystery. Have no idea about his intimate life. He did have a girlfriend, but they were very young. (He still had braces! – 15)</p>
<p>*First, and most importantly, you must have enough money to adopt. *</p>
<p>If a single mom who is a public school teacher has “enough” money to adopt- wouldn’t a couple in their 30’s or 40’s also fit that criteria?</p>
<p>If you don’t meet the financial stability criteria for adoption perhaps you aren’t ready to take on the responsibilty of another human.</p>
<p>Many young people do not have the thousands of dollars that is required to adopt an infant.</p>
<p>You are referring to young couples with fertility problems right?
On the one hand you are arguing that the reasoning to have kids early is to avoid potential fertility problems 20 years down the road- 20 as opposed to 40. But if the couple decides to wait until they have better financial/emotional stability before they have children & runs into fertility problems, wouldn’t a couple in their mid 30’s or 40’s be better able to afford the costs ( and have good ins) of adoption?</p>
<p>But emeraldkitty, there is a flaw with the idea that only people with “enough money” are “ready” to take on another human. Because what that really means is that only the highly intelligent and financially secure should have children. </p>
<p>And who sets the standard of what it takes to raise a decent human being?</p>
<p>For example, let’s look at the Amish. These people do not go to college. They basically formally educate until the 8th grade. Their lives are simply about acquiring what is necessary to live – food, water, shelter, clothing. Are you going to say that they are not fit to raise children, simply because they do not buy into what modern society sees as “necessary”? </p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that 100 years ago, humans had a concept of what is truly necessary to live. Are we going to say that everybody but the people who have been alive in the last 100 years, since cars, phones, tvs, and computers came about, was unhappy?</p>
<p>I read the Little House series. Back then, females married at 16 and were teachers. The husbands hunted, farmed, etc… One only has to read the literature from back then to know that these people were not worse off. Were they at the mercy of the elements and illness? Of course, but we STILL ARE. </p>
<p>So we raise our kids to learn the “appropriate things” – computers, electronics, high-tech medicine, and all of these other “necessary” components of our modern society. We tell ourselves that having and loving our children is not as important as acquiring title to land, money for the rainy day, and the means and money to shuttle them to these oh-so-important activities. But meanwhile, we miss out on having children to love and to love us. I’m not buying it that this is better…</p>
<p>I’m not thrilled with the circumstances of my birth or the family that I was born into. But would I have rather had a different mother than the 19 year-old former foster child with poor grammar that was mine? No. For my father may have given me intelligence, but it was she who gave me compassion and love of the simpler things in life. It was she who took me to the library and who sacrificed her own desires to give me that knock off Barbie in the drugstore because she couldn’t buy the real one. </p>
<p>And I think that my child would not have traded me in either, as flawed as I may have been, the 20 year old mother that I was, for a “more appropriate” adoptive family…</p>
<p>The single mothers who are adopting typically adopt older and special needs children which are typically free through the local social services system. Or they can be women in their 30’s who have save their money to go overseas and adopt. But rarely do you see a single woman under 30, of average means, adopt an infant stranger in this country. Rosie O’Donnell and Calista Flockhart? Yeah. Adopt a relative’s baby? Sure. Otherwise? Fat chance.</p>
<p>Doesn’t anyone here ever think that it would be nice to just “opt out” of the rat race that this society has become? I really wonder what life will be like for my children and grandchildren.</p>
<p>*Because what that really means is that only the highly intelligent and financially secure should have children. *</p>
<p>That isn’t what I said.
However I would say that a optimally a child deserves two parents who are able to care for and physically and emotionally nurture them.
If a woman finds herself ina situation where the other parent wont be involved, then I hope she already has the support of adults who will be involved not just for a few years but until the child is grown.</p>
<p>Being a parent isn’t a right & there are many ways to be involved in childrens lives than by giving birth to them.</p>
<p>If I had a kid who was fixated on someone that wasn’t romantically interested in her,
*A big part of the problem is that she cannot cope with the thought of leaving her best friend (a boy), who certainly isn’t putting anything on hold for her…</p>
<p>I think that she will literally leave her school crying. She’s not looking forward to any of this.*</p>
<p>if my past experience included things like *He knows this because I have always been proud of how I turned my life around. He would state that it would put my child at risk to contact the bio father whom she has not seen since she was 5.
*
I would have other things to think about than her fertility.</p>
<p>I think it is great that you were able to finish your education and raise your daughter without her bio dad- but don’t you want a different life for your child?</p>
<p>I have a daughter the same age & if she had similar experiences my priorities would be that her future experiences would help to make her confident & independent than I would be about her having children in her early 20s.</p>
<p>I also would disagree that life is a ratrace. I don’t even really know what you mean by that- neither my husband or I have attended a 4 year college, my younger daughter attends an inner city public high school- while we have always had education as a priority- the value doesn’t come from greater earning power but greater perspective on the wonders of life.</p>
<p>emeraldkity: You’re singing my song. </p>
<p>OP: Life can not be planned like an algebra equation. From what you’ve said, your daughter is unhappy now. As a parent, I would deal with that and let the future hypotheticals take care of themselves.</p>
<p>[The</a> Fourteen Mindfulness Trainings](<a href=“http://www.mindfulnessbell.org/14trainings.htm]The”>http://www.mindfulnessbell.org/14trainings.htm)</p>
<p>This might help you sort out some of your thoughts and concerns. Good luck!</p>
<p>Janey, thank you for your post. Also thank you to the people who pm’d your support to me.</p>
<p>One member here said: <<as i=“” mentioned=“” before,=“” came=“” from=“” a=“” traditional=“” italian=“” upbringing.=“” there=“” is=“” couple=“” in=“” my=“” family=“” who=“” was=“” never=“” able=“” to=“” have=“” children.=“” at=“” one=“” point,=“” they=“” were=“” considering=“” adoption.=“” think=“” that=“” the=“” baby=“” also=“” asian.=“” it=“” made=“” very=“” clear=“” them=“” by=“” grandmother=“” this=“” child=“” would=“” not=“” really=“” be=“” seen=“” same.=“” consequently,=“” did=“” adopt.=“”>>
Just wanted to say that I married into a “traditional Italian family” and the beautiful Chinese-born child my Italian husband and I adopted has been accepted 100% and is treated exactly the same as my in-laws (who were born and raised in Sorrento and Rome and came to the US after WWII) treat their kids’ “homemade” children. In fact, I remember when our Asian daughter was sitting in her high chair as a toddler, slurping spaghetti and my mother in law said, delightedly, “Look, she’s so Italian!” 
One last thing: to my mind, any person who <em>really</em> wants to adopt and become a parent would not swayed by a family member (even a mother!) saying that the baby wouldn’t be accepted by that family member. I don’t know many adult women who ask their mothers before they decide to become pregnant, so why ask for permission/blessings to adopt? For another, I think it’s wrong not to give people who are prejudiced, etc. opportunity to change. I have known of several cases where prospective grandparents expressed “concern” about a child of a different race coming into a family, only to fall absolutely head over heels in love with the real live baby or child once he or she came into the family. Babies are wonderful ambassadors. Our extended family believes that our Asian-born child is one of the best things to ever happen to them.</as></p>
<p>* I remember when our Asian daughter was sitting in her high chair as a toddler, slurping spaghetti and my mother in law said, delightedly, “Look, she’s so Italian!”*</p>
<p>Of course you know where noodles come from :)</p>
<p>We have many families in our area who have adopted kids of other nationalities, many couples are also of “mixed” ethnicities as well, so that if you were trying to seperate out for some reason those kids who aren’t spitting images of their parents, you would be hard pressed to figure out which ones were “chosen”.</p>
<p>I would also agree with you notmamarose, that children are wonderful ambassadors, I have known older folks who have lived their life thinking a certain way about people, until a grandchild, or great-grandchild opened up their heart to greater acceptance and love of peoples they formerly dismissed.</p>
<p>I think it is really a wonderful thing- it may depend on the part of the world/country you live in, but in my area, the complexity of backgrounds brings more attention to what really matters which IMO is * the people*, and less attention is paid to hair texture or skin color.</p>
<p>But again- I don’t think you need to adopt or give birth to kids to have them in their lives. My aunt for example, taught children in India at a Christian school for over 30 years, her days & nights were filled with children .</p>
<p>Neither one of my kids, currently intends on having children- they may change their minds at some point of course- but I choose to think of that choice as powerful & evidence that they are giving consideration to their own dreams, & not just following the schedule that “society/relatives” think they should follow.</p>
<p>However, both of them have worked a great deal with kids, both worked with kids ( & ponies) at the zoo, worked summers at residential camps and my oldest has been a teacher at science day camps as well-summers during college & during her year off.</p>
<p>I have just two kids and the youngest is a senior in high school, but as I have posted on other boards, I have taken an interest in some charming girls around the corner whose relatives are a little over stretched.
The kids love the attention, and I really feel I am making a difference by giving the grandmother who is the caretaker a break, as well as being able to give them a greater view of the world.</p>
<p>Other local parents who are seeing their kids go off to college are taking time to volunteer as coaches for pre teens, or work as tutors in the schools, you really can be involved with children in many ways besides giving birth to 10 as my great grandmother did!</p>
<p>emerald, I laughed out loud at your “you know where noodles come from” comment! Indeed, I reminded my lovely and very loving Italian mother-in-law of that the second she said about my very Chinese daughter “Oh, she’s so Italian!”
I also agree that one can have children in one’s life in a very mutually meaningful way without parenting children onself. I know many dedicated teachers (including my own beloved sister) who absolutely adore and help children each and every day without being parents themselves. In fact, I daresay that the fact that these people do not have children of their own allows them, in a very real way, to dedicate themselves to many children, and we all benefit.
I also am glad to hear that young people today do not grow up feeling that they MUST become parents. I wouldn’t have missed being a mom for the world (my two daughters are the absolute joy of my life, even on a bad day!) but I still hope for a world where every child is a wanted child. That’s one reason I am such an advocate for adoption: to give loving homes to children whose original parents (for whatever reason) cannot or will not parent them. Back when my husband and I announced our plans to adopt a child rather than have another “homemade” one, a lot of people thought we were crazy and said “It’s not the same, you know.” Well, I have news for them: YES, IT IS. It really, really is.</p>
<p>You are lucky to have married into your family. But in the area that I was raised (Buffalo), racism was very prevalent. In fact, in the neighborhood where I grew up, there were predominantly Italian and Polish immigrants. And the Italians and Polish fought with one another. And the boys in the neighborhood literally knew who “belonged there”. One time my Polish/Italian cousin came to my neighborhood to visit me, and he was egged while we walked down the street.</p>
<p>Now, I had no understanding of racism. But I do remember inviting every girl in my class to my 4th grade birthday party, including the only black child in my class. And I remember my godmother coming over to my house, and when I introduced Celeste (my black friend), she said “Ohhhhhh”. And although I did not understand fully, I felt as if I had done something wrong, and it had to do with Celeste. And so I did not invite any more black friends to my home.</p>
<p>Because of the racism in my neighborhood, there were a lot of problems when the schools tried to integrate and began bussing black children into our neighborhood school. I was a small child, and I got the brunt of hair pullings and “I’m going to kick your butt afterschool” for no reason that I could understand. Now that I am older, I really how terrible it must have been for those children to have to come into that neighborhood. I’m sure that they had an earful from their parents. </p>
<p>When I went to high school, I was bussed into the inner city, and began to meet children from all over the city. I made friends with several black children, but I was always reluctant and embarrassed to tell them the neighborhood that I lived in, because I had no control over the conditions, but I was afraid I’d be disliked anyhow. </p>
<p>Notably, my high school was only composed of white and black students, one Chinese girl, and two Arabian girls. That’s it. When I went to college, I went to a University and met people from many different cultures. I was fortunate to meet people who were willing to do a “cultural exchange” of sorts. Although I must have sounded extremely stupid (“I didn’t think that Asian people are allowed to live together before marriage”, followed up by looks at each other and laughing), but they understood that I was not trying to offend, but to learn. My Asian friends invited me to their home to enjoy their meals and I did the same. </p>
<p>My old neighborhood still exists and has not changed. There are frequent reports of black families moving out because they moved in and have had their homes set on fire.</p>
<p>One thing that I have noticed in my family, and of other Italian families from my area, is that their bias does not simply extend to other cultures, but to in-laws!!! In my family, it was not so much the issue of the baby being Asian, it was the issue of the baby not being “blood”. My mother’s grandparents disowned her mother for marrying my German grandfather. And my father’s family has never accepted in-laws. They are civil, but not warm. </p>
<p>When my grandmother passed away, my husband was supposed to be a pall bearer. When we arrived at the funeral, he was replaced with a distance cousin (a blood relative). Additionally, the family member eliminated in-laws from the obituary. I’ll never forget my aunt (married to my uncle for 30 years) saying “Gee, I’ve been married into the family for 25 years. Do you think that I am family yet?”</p>
<p>While I agree that a couple should not require “permission” of their family to adopt, the reality is that this son did love his mother, despite her flaws. I think when it boils down to it, he knew that the baby would not be truly accepted and he was not willing to disown his family in order to protect the baby’s feelings. So they did not adopt. And I also do not feel that my family ever accept my first child born out of wedlock, whose father was not Italian. </p>
<p>Ironically, my husband’s mother is German and just as bad. She’s never accepted me because I am Italian (although I am not just Italian). Then again, this is also a woman who has remarked in our car “Must be a woman driver” when someone drove erratically.</p>