Virginity and Going Away To College

Parent Cafe
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<p>To state the obvious, there’s a big difference between (a) being career-focused and choosy, and not wanting casual relationships but not having time for something more, and (b) saving oneself for marriage as a moral principle. I had a friend who made it to 27 in the former category, but she was otherworldly. I suspect S-mom’s sister-in-law really belongs in the latter category, since she obviously had enough of a relationship with someone for them to decide to get married, so I’m sure the question of premarital sex came up for them. (And, as we know from Grey’s Anatomy, even interns don’t work hard enough to never have sex.)</p>

<p>All you’re telling me, though, is that maybe there are a few people who make it into their late 20s as virgins, without ruining their lives. I don’t really doubt that, and I don’t think less of them for it. But the implied proposition of most of your arguments is that that’s a BETTER way to live than that chosen by almost everyone else. Is it? I’m not certain many people are going to sign up for the work-so-hard-you-don’t-have-deep-relationships concept as a moral good.</p>

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<p>I don’t believe that I’ve ever said that “saving yourself for marriage” was the better way to go. I was not a virgin when I got married and neither was my H. BUT I think that there is a big difference between kids having sex in a stairwells with random strangers and having sex in the context of a loving relationship. As far as I’m concerned, this is not really as much a discussion about moral vs. immoral behavior as it is about what is really healthy for people in general. The girls that my D’s talk about who are having sex with randoms at parties while drunk are not living healthy lifestyles and are putting themselves in grave danger.
Please let’s not pretend that “Grey’s Anatomy” is real life. Med school for my family members was not even close and it is that kind of ridulousness that has young people asking “what is wrong with me” if I’m not having that kind of experience with fabulous looking people at 22?</p>

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<p>I am a little surprised that these debates are still being waged. </p>

<p>I, for one, don’t really care what other people do around their intimate personal lives, and I don’t see why anyone would care what I do.</p>

<p>I give my children privacy.</p>

<p>I think having sex in a stairwell is in poor taste, but what does that have to do with having sex behind closed doors?</p>

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<p>Mythmom, Didn’t you say that you were married and had two grown children? Why do you think I care about what YOU do behind closed doors? Trust me, I could not care any less. I was referring to kids in college who are engaging in risking and damaging behavior and I can’t imagine why anyone would defend that kind of behavior.
I’m glad that you give your kids privacy. So do I.</p>

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<p>I think having sex in a stairwell is in poor taste</p>

<p>how about a doorway? If it was in the middle of the night and it was cold and snowy and deserted?
Oh with a stranger?
I guess I never really have had an Erica Jong moment- I knew everyone that I snuggled with & it is pretty fun to remind H of that doorway ;)</p>

<p>IMO people who more than once in a blue moon use substances so that they can “excuse” their destructive behavior have big problems.Not just risk of pregnancy or disease, but hooking up with the wrong person at the wrong time.
The sex- wouldn’t be the main problem, the destructiveness and substance use would be IMO.</p>

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<p>People do all kinds of dangerous things and put themselves at great risk when “under the influence,” that’s why I find it so troubling. One of my D’s friends has done this several times and then she “hides” when she sees the guy the next day or next week. How can this be healthy for this young woman? I think it’s messed up.
P.S., emerald, the doorway thing is not in poor taste IMO. Sounds like fun.</p>

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<p>Who here has been arguing in favor of self-destructive, self-hating behavior? You can do that with sex, and you can do that with other things. Either way, it’s bad. But deciding to have sex is not deciding to have sex with random people at parties. Those are two very different decisions.</p>

<p>It’s not brand new, either. One of my sisters did stuff like that for a long time. She was messed up, and found lots of ways to express it, sex and alcohol abuse being only two of them.</p>

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<p>I’m a virgin, 23, female, just out of college. Haven’t found the right guy yet and haven’t had a committed relationship. Thought I had been in love once, but he didn’t feel to the same extent, so that was, automatically, a no. </p>

<p>Oh, and I’m not a workaholic, have lots of friends, interesting hobbies, dress well and turn men’s heads often more than my non-virgin friends do. </p>

<p>Que sera, sera. Waited so long anyway, so I’ll keep waiting-- for the one that’s worth it. Nothing to do with “religion” or “waiting for marriage” – just a committed relationship with a man who loves and respects me. In this day and age, I wonder if that’s hard to come by or if I missed something along the way. Doesn’t matter though. I know what I want in a relationship – to give and receive love and respect. Often to find that, one must first learn to respect and love oneself. </p>

<p>Sometimes an “older” virgin – if you call 20s “old” – is wiser than the “experienced” nymphette at 15.</p>

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<p>Great discussion.</p>

<p>great lakes mom, that’s a good point – things are certainly much better today then when an unplanned pregnancy resulted in shame and banishment. Our current culture has certainly advanced in many beneficial ways–sex is not necessarily ‘bad’ or ‘dirty’, children born out of wedlock aren’t marginalized, women have nearly equal access to jobs/pay that men do, sexual crimes are now investigated and punished, etc.</p>

<p>However, that does not mean that because attitudes toward women/sex have evolved that every moral restriction from the past need be tossed out as well. </p>

<p>Women are wired to attach emotionally after physical encounters. It’s a recipe for heartache for many women to try and adopt a casual “we slept together & I don’t care if he calls” attitude.</p>

<p>JHS–I know many, many people who waited until they were married for complete physical intimacy (family, friends, former college classmates, people in my church, former work collegues of other religions). None of them are wildly dysfunctional and many, many had/have happy lives with their spouses. </p>

<p>07DAD–re: modesty being irrelevant to self-esteem. It’s an interesting concept which is why I recommended Shalit’s books to Whatapainthisis. I don’t believe the author is advocating dressing full-body-cover as a road to self-value; rather, she is simply offering an alternative to the current culture in which the media obsessively focuses on sexually promiscuous, scantily clad singers/actresses, television shows and movies glamorize casual sex and the racks of clothing for girls as young as 7 are filled with mini-skirts and t-shirts and shorts with provocative phrases.</p>

<p>As to the comparison (stated a few posts back) that the impulse to sexual activity in teens is like the first steps of a toddler and is thus natural and should be encouraged – it’s certainly natural, as are many human urges. However, no one would facilitate each and every impulse of your toddler with out guidance as to how to best channel and focus those impulses. When the child grabs every toy in sight do you smile and say that’s just normal? No, you channel the (normal) behavior of wanting things for yourself into something more cooperative and socially rewarding (taking turns). Similarly, sexual desire can/should be informed by an understanding of the most rewarding context – rather than an open-ended, ‘just do as you feel’ approach.</p>

<p>Interesting that utilizing a moral basis for a proscription against sex before marriage is generally being rejected, here. I wonder how those in a monogomous relationship/marriage would define their choice to remain faithful and whether that choice would be informed by moral considerations?</p>

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<p>Of course. What a silly, insulting question that is.</p>

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<p>So true, Jolynne. I also believe that women are hardwired differently when it comes to physical intimacy.</p>

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<p>Sarahsmom: Ouch. Well, my point is that when I was young I’m sure older women were clucking over me, or would have, had they known what I was doing. All sorts of dire consequences were predicted, but none of them occurred.</p>

<p>dke: Why generalize in the face of counter evidence? Surely, some women are, but not all.</p>

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<p>JHS,</p>

<p>Well I didn’t mean to be insulting! I figured of course it was true…and I mentioned it because it raises the question (by analogy) — if morality can be used as a foundation for the creation of long-term intimate, marital relationships (& it would be insulting to believe otherwise, as you said) why does it seem (unless I have it wrong) such an inapplicable concept when discussing pre-marital physical relationships?</p>

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<p>mvr, good for you for holding out for the relationship you want and deserve. That’s healthy. I think people might be surprised at how many young women there are out there like you.</p>

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<p>If we say relationships are based on “morality”, what does that mean?
Does it mean that it is up to the couple to decide or does society want to decide for them?</p>

<p>I have a code of ethics- but they may be dissimilar to my neighbors.
I am not hardwired to chemically bond with someone that I have swapped spit with, not as far I have been able to tell anyway.
I realize some people are, but isn’t that why certain groups were so afraid of reliable contraception, that if women had access to birth control that they would be fornicating on the traffic circles?</p>

<p>The young women I know do get to know young men in a more casual fashion, not by dating 5 of them in one week as was mentioned earlier, but by group activities. It is actually quite rare in our circles for teens to pair up, they do things in groups of same sex friends, meeting up with groups of opposite sex friends, and next week the groups may shift a bit.
They are awfully involved in school related activites, jobs and academics, not a lot of time for one on one dating. By participating in group social activities they can see their friends away from school, but not leave anyone out.</p>

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<p>Thank you, NotMamaRose. Sure, there are girls like me. Guys, though? Haven’t met any. Ironically and frustratingly, as I get older it seems to become more of a problem for the future. An element when considering a relationship with a man. </p>

<p>There are guys my age in my group of friends who are in the type of relationship I’d like to be in, but none who are single and still virgins. Or maybe there are – and the problem is that girls just talk about it more. Another issue! </p>

<p>I haven’t read this entire thread, but seems that the question of “virginity” as a right of passage is misplaced. It’s not “losing your virginity” that’s important. It’s “with whom” and in what circumstances. If OP’s daughter does not have the type of relationship she wants, nor the right person – which, by 18, few can really expect to find – then “losing your virginity” as a rite of passage makes absolutely no sense to me.</p>

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<p>“Women need a reason to have sex, men just need a place.” Mitch Robbins in City Slickers</p>

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<p>I doubt most men even think of it as “intimacy”.</p>

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<p>I tried to stay away from the caveman types
and I agree Bethievt, I wouldn’t even call “relations” with someone like that * sex*, that seems more like masturbation using some strangers body part instead of your hand.</p>

<p>But I would disagree that all men are wired that way, they may be encouraged that way- with a wink and a nod, but I haven’t seen where they are less vulnerable to throwing their heart where their body has already gone, than women are.</p>

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<p>Gee, I must have run into really nice men because I have a higher opinion of them.</p>

<p>I find we all have difficulties in sustaining relationships. My friendships with women dwindle off as well. Most people are in relationships for self-interest, but I haven’t found men any more this way than women. I have found my “intimate” relationships with men difficult, but I have found many of my friendships with women difficult as well (non-sexual).</p>

<p>Unfortunately, our society seems to encourage narcissism. We are so busy competing and achieving altruism seems to be in somewhat short supply. However, this may be genetic as well. I seem to remember learning that altruism is a recessive trait.</p>

<p>That said, I have found men to be tender and kind for the most part.</p>