<p>I guess it’s how you define virginity. Most kids nowdays don’t consider oral or other entry types as a loss of virginity. So I guess one can remain whatever one wants depending on how they define things… 
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<p>so no you don’t have to lie, you just narrowly define the term…</p>
<p>I recall an aspect of couples counseling years ago in another relationship. The therapist observed that some people have a fear of what they might do if they “really let go” of their restraints and reserves. The therapist suggested that it would not necessairly result in having sex with hordes of unknown people in the middle of a crowded intersection.</p>
<p>We explored that issue in some depth. It seems that some people build a personal view that protects them from what they unconsciously see as the risks associated from their own wants, desires or impulses. We discussed risk taking generally and determined that usually preparation and progressing by stages is how a mature person deals with most risks. </p>
<p>We also discussed that when this is not the case those perceived risks can become fears and can simply make one miserable and deprive one of the enjoyment of a full life.</p>
<p>I vote to not live in fear of sex and to not instill that fear in my child. I also did not advocate that my S take the risks associated with sex, but did make sure he knew of the appropriate precautions. If he had chosen to do as dukie11 indicates she (he?) has, i.e., do things just short of intercourse and not have intercourse [the technical virgin route], I would not care. </p>
<p>But, I could not take pleasure or feel that I had fulfilled the appropriate roll of a parent if I’d loaded him up with a lot of fear and guilt laden mumbo-jumbo to scare him into abstaining.</p>
<p>“If you had a daughter would you rather have them date a guy who chose to wait till mariage to have sex”</p>
<p>How about if you turn it around and ask, " If you had a son, would you rather have them date a girl who choses to wait till marriage…"</p>
<p>Do you think some people will answer differently to those two questions? I do see a dichotomy when it comes to virginity. It seems to be more expected, or valued, in girls than boys.</p>
<p>“How about if you turn it around and ask, " If you had a son, would you rather have them date a girl who choses to wait till marriage…”"</p>
<p>I have sons, and I do not think the above is any of my business.</p>
<p>If I had a daughter, I’d feel the same way.</p>
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<p>More expected or valued by whom? I doubt that non-virgin brides value a virgin groom. Nor, do I really think that most virgin brides want a novice groom. </p>
<p>I have a female friend who tells a hysterical story of what happened when she was with a virgin boy in the dark. Seems his lack of familiarity with the terrain resulted in some, shall we say–misdirection?</p>
<p>So, do virgin grooms value virgin brides? Anyone have an idea? Blind leading the blind? Guaranteed to be messy.</p>
<p>Do non-virgin grooms value virgin brides? As a non-virgin groom, I would not have wanted a virgin bride. </p>
<p>In HS and college, I had already experienced how some females REALLY have mental/emotional problems, as well as physical difficulties, with sex. If marriage is a commitment that has as two of its goals monogamy and a lifetime commitment, sexual compatibility is going to be an important aspect of the viability of that relationship.</p>
<p>07Dad, you sound like my husband now! He said he was very suspicious of women who were virgins after a certain age. How one sided is that? What happenned to all the “choices” to be or not be virginal. So women who choose chastity now have a mental problem? Come on. There’s a huge population of people out there who choose it and there are several religions that expect it of their parishioners.</p>
<p>I have a feeling that this gulf between sets of posters is probably uncrossable.</p>
<p>We just feel differently.</p>
<p>I will try to build a bridge, though. I don’t feel that keeping one’s virginity is neurotic; it can been born of deeply help beliefs and values. These are as worthy of respect as any other motivation in life.</p>
<p>A good friend’s sister joined the lay religious community as a very young woman. In her forties she decided that she wanted a different life. She left the community, but stayed very active in the Church; in fact all her jobs were within the Church and she stayed a strong force in Catholic education. </p>
<p>She really wanted to marry at this point. She had very strong criteria for groom: 1) Active in the Church; 2) Had work she really admired; 3) That he actively purpose her with no help from her (she is very shy).</p>
<p>She got sent to a Conference on gay Catholic youth. The key note speaker was a psychiatrist in his early fifties. He noticed her from the podium. He took the empty seat next to her after his talk. The rest, as they say, is history.</p>
<p>Both were virgins. She had minor surgery before their marriage to make her “marriage ready” since by fifties his stamina had diminished and her body part had grown more dense.</p>
<p>BTW: Both had chosen Our Lady of Guadaloupe as her/his patron saint way before they’d met. The went to Mexico on their honeymoon and adopted a Chinese baby.</p>
<p>This is DEFINITELY not a blueprint for my life. But I respect the two people involved, and I was thrilled that they found each other in this way.</p>
<p>Great story, Mythmom.</p>
<p>I’m not convinced that there is " a huge population of people out there who choose it". I, personally, can’t think of one person I know who ‘chose it’, either of my generation or the younger generation kids I know who are in committed relationships or are married. The fact is that the majority of kids are sexually active by college age and it’s important that they are educated prior to that about, not only how to protect themselves and their partners, but about how to have good, compatible, loving and balanced relationships. Sex is not the only aspect of relationships with which we, as parents, should be concerned. In fact, it may not even be the most important aspect with which we should be concerned. </p>
<p>The choice as to when to become sexually active in a relationship is a personal one, and, in my experience, it is almost always done in a committed relationship. Certainly, it was that way in my own college days for me and for my friends, and I don’t see much evidence that that has changed in most cases today for the kids I know. Are there kids who have sex occasionally with random partners? Sure, but I think that it is a fairly small percentage of that young adult/college age population. </p>
<p>I wouldn’t be comfortable with any of my 4Ds being in a relationship with a boy who wanted to wait til marriage (not that any of them would, in any case). I don’t think that it’s a healthy choice to avoid sex until late 20’s/early 30’s which is when a lot of people marry today. In a committed relationship, especially one that is likely to be life-long, the sexual part of that relationship is an important one, and, for most of us, one that takes some time to develop and ‘perfect’! It is also a natural part of a relationship and I honestly cannot imagine waiting til marriage to explore that part of the relationship.</p>
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Nice story, but why in he world would you, she , or her sister be sharing this bit of info??? Talk about taking out romance…</p>
<p>Anyway, I’m curious to know what lay religious community she joined in the Catholic Church. Never heard of such a thing.</p>
<p>I guess it all depends on what you mean by “sex.” A lot of publicity has been given to the whole phenomenon of young people (high school and college age) “hooking up.” In fact, author and reporter Laura Sessions Stepp’s book, Unhooked/How Young Women Pursue Sex, Delay Love and Lose at Both" got a lot of publicity, including stories in the New York Times (as I recall) and the Washington Post. In a nutshell, Stepp posits that this culture of casual sexual contact outside of committed relationships is causing more harm than good, especially to young females. (Not everyone agrees with her, of course.)
However, I do think most adults would agree that what this 2006 ABC News story said was at least a little alarming:
<<this abc=“” news=“” poll=“” of=“” 13-=“” to=“” 17-year-olds,=“” conducted=“” in=“” summer=“” 2004,=“” provides=“” some=“” reassuring=“” answers=“” --=“” and=“” others=“” that=“” are=“” cause=“” for=“” alarm.=“” it=“” finds=“” the=“” vast=“” majority=“” teens=“” reject=“” casual=“” sex.=“” but=“” survey=“” also=“” found=“” plenty=“” risky=“” behavior:=“” among=“” who’ve=“” had=“” sexual=“” intercourse,=“” nearly=“” one=“” four=“” say=“” they=“” or=“” their=“” partner=“” don’t=“” always=“” use=“” a=“” condom,=“” 14=“” percent=“” any=“” reliable=“” birth=“” control.=“” two-thirds=“” them=“” have=“” more=“” than=“” sex=“” partner.=“” seven=“” 10=“” first=“” time=“” was=“” unplanned.=“”>></this></p>
<p>StickerShock: Have no idea of why this information was shared. I included it because I thought it was somewhat relevant to the topic at hand.</p>
<p>As to her community, I don’t know what it was. She has “headquartered” in NYC. I definitely know that that part of the story was true.</p>
<p>I think this an unusual example; not many people following this path. However, I want us to be able to respect many flavors of experience.</p>
<p>alwaysamom: I have to disagree. Many kids are “hooking up” and having casual sex. This doesn’t make me uncomfortable, but it is a reality of the scene at college for many students.</p>
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<p>Yes to the latter, I guess, if one takes a charitable view of the word “expect”. But where’s the evidence of the former? Cute stories like mythmom’s, aside. I don’t believe that literally no one makes that choice long-term, of course. Just not very many, at least not without a tinge of pathology. (Just to be clear, I’m not talking at all about priests and nuns here. I am talking about lay heterosexual adults who expect to marry and and to become sexually active in the future.)</p>
<p>Like mythmom, I am perfectly prepared to admire those who do – admire their character, their certainty in themselves, their individuality. I won’t think that simply not having had sex makes them better or holier people, but I could easily think that making difficult, unpopular personal choices out of principle and sticking to them makes them better people. (As long as the principle itself isn’t harmful. I am not going to admire white supremacists for their strength of character. I’m not 100% positive that the virgin-supremacy principle is truly not harmful, but it’s nothing like the white-supremacy principle.)</p>
<p>I don’t have any experience with that, however, because they don’t exist in my world. (A world that is chock-full, by the way, of the sorts of parishoners to which dke refers.)</p>
<p>As for the drum-beat of media excitement, I have said many times that practically nothing seems to have changed since I was a teenager, except for attitudes about female-to-male oral sex, and increased tolerance for/visibiluty of homosexuality among teens. Plus, of course, a lot MORE caution about STDs.</p>
<p>Do you really not know any virgins? I’m always shocked when people say that. I’ve heard such statements countless times over the years: “most people” are not virgins and those who claim to be virgins are either lying, mental, or doomed to failure. Well, in my ethnic/religious community, people have traditionally postponed sex till marriage, so virgins are commonplace. Of course, just because we are of a different ethnic community doesn’t mean that everyone abstains. Obviously, premarital sex happens in every culture. But in my culture, people don’t narrow their eyes at you when you say you are abstaining till marriage. It’s not considered weird. No one makes fun of you or spreads ridiculous tales about wedding nights that go wrong because the bride and groom are virginal. Maybe that’s why there are a lot more virgins in my community than yours–because we respect their decision.</p>
<p>dukie: When I was your age I DID know a lot of virgins. Being 19 or 20 and in college, and being abstinent, isn’t unusual at all as far as I’m concerned, and is NOT sick, sad, dishonest, or anything like that. You deserve to have your feelings, beliefs, and instincts respected. Absolutely. However, I’m sure you are often aware that, even at your still-quite-young age, yours is a minority choice.</p>
<p>And your point about ethnic communities is a very important one. But. My general impression is that in most such ethnic communities, the median age at which women get married is – or was until recently – quite young. As such ethnic communities assimilate into American culture (which they do), sending their daughters to fancy-schmancy colleges and grad schools, behavioral norms tend to change. As they did with my ethnic community, somewhere between my great-grandparents and me.</p>
<p>dke asked:</p>
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<p>Please re-read my post (#425). I said that because I had known some females in high school and college who had emotional/mental and physical problems with sex, that I would not want a virgin bride.</p>
<p>You have asked, so I’ll amplify. One girl I got to know in college had been sexually abused (sodomized) but was technically a vaginal virgin. Great girl, but she was upfront that this experience had caused her to have real doubts about her ability and/or comfort in ever having intercourse. One girl in HS was very interested in a full sexual experience but she had a physical problem that made even the attempt too painful for her to participate in intercourse. Two other girls, one in HS and one in college, became my friend and while their stories were different, both were angry virgins who admitted that they would probably start having intercourse to get back at their mothers.</p>
<p>I think sexual compatibility in a long term sexually exclusive marriage is important. I would want to have had enough sexual intercorse with a woman prior to marrying her to have some basis to know where she is coming from sexually. AND, I know several women who married sexually cruel males who wish desperately that they had been initmate with the man before they married the S-B.</p>
<p>However, there are no guarantees anywhere. My husband completely changed when he stopped having a salaried job and began owning and running his own business. I would have had no way of knowing who he was going to turn into.</p>
<p>I think the best argument for virginity or experience is not the future but the present. No, it’s not an irresponsible be here now, anything goes philosophy. Rather, I evaluate each action according to the standard of whether or not it contributes to the person I want to be. Holding myself back from desired sexual relationships is not part of that person unless there is a darned good reason like I’m already in another relationship, the other person is already in another relationship, I know the other to be mentally/physically unhealthy past a reasonable threshold level, I am too busy with professional obligations, or I am too vulnerable myself at the moment because of physical/emotional or mental issues.</p>
<p>What would not influence me would be: What other people would say, how long I knew the person or whether a long-term relationship was going to result. That would be the question for a different day. </p>
<p>Although many have pointed to dire consequences of this ethos, I have experienced none and am comfortable with my own history. I really don’t have too much indication that this is an issue for others either.</p>
<p>I have been with H for 22 years so these issues haven’t arisen too much of late.</p>
<p>Repeat post.</p>
<p>If my D were dating a 38 y/o virgin, I’m sure that I’d be curious as to why, but that would not be my business unless of course she was a minor!!
I’ve known several people who were virgins at 25 or 30. Most were professionals who were focused on their careers and didn’t have time to date seriously. None of them were “saving themselves,” just not able to find the right person and didn’t feel like hooking up for the sake of “losing their virginity.” My H’s sister was 32 and a virgin when she got married. She’s an OB GYN and is pregnant with their first child. So far so good. Her husband was 28 and had only been with two other woman, both long term girlfriends.
My 18 yr old D has several friends who are virgins, one of whom is her roommate. (She’s a REAL virgin, not the kind that gives and receives oral sex.) She’s just never dated much and she’s not in a hurry. I don’t think it’s weird or sick at all. She wants to be in love and I thinks that’s great.</p>
<p>yes, Sarahsmom, I had many friends as you describe (when I was single) who were busy professionals who had no interest in casual relationships or one night stands, were choosy, and didn’t have time for a big time relationship. Better late than never most have found happiness and marriage/family but not with a ton of experiences before meeting their spouses.</p>