W&M, UMass Amherst, UPitt, Grinnell, American, GWU, GMU, Bama options [economics, business, political science, maybe STEM]

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Our son has several colleges to consider and we would love some input in narrowing down options.

Note that cost is not a consideration at this point - we can cover CoA without debt for all options. We want to find the best fit and cost will act as tiebreaker if we are really torn. That said, some of the lower ranked schools (GMU/Bama) are on the list because of very low relative costs but they seem to offer much more than just low costs so we want to evaluate them carefully.

Also note that our son does not care about factors like location, weather and size. His key considerations are - 1) academic rigor (and likelihood of engaging with academically oriented peers), 2) ability to do undergraduate research, 3) better chances for graduate program admissions 4) internship opportunities.

His preferred major is Econ but may also look at International Relations, Political Science. He wants to be able to explore STEM options as well.

In no particular order:
George Mason Univ - University Scholars program allows for small academically rigorous cohort, has been working with an Econ prof so feels confident of future research opps

St. John’s College, Annapolis - loves the academic rigor, great books program, graduate school outcomes. Concerned that alumni don’t seem to show a lot of traditional success on LinkedIn. limited research and internship opps.

American - Politics, Policy and Law Scholar, likes focus of program, 3-year graduation possibility, and DC location for internships

GWU - likes better ranking for Poli Sci, DC internships, and option to explore STEM (vs American)

UMass Amherst - likes the 5 college consortium

UPitt - highest ranking (#41) Econ department he got into. Not sure about other benefits.

U Alabama - good UG research opps, options for STEM, decent internships.

William and Mary - Joint Degree Program with St. Andrews (Econ major), likes ranking, academic rigor. Will be locked into major.

Oberlin - was a last minute addition so don’t know much about school.
Grinnell - last minute addition. likes ranking.

Specific Questions:

  • Given all other options, any good reasons to keep Oberlin and Grinnell on the list?
  • UMass Amherst vs UPitt - what are unique things to consider
  • Is quality of research and internship opps U BAMA offer really compare to other schools on the list?

Trying to use the elimination approach.

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Wow - what an eclectic group of schools.

St. Johns - is just so different.

So let’s look at your categories:

  1. You can probably figure out who is most rigorous - and I think your last three schools likely offer the best opportunity (including the two you might want to take off) - but you can get rigor anywhere - Honors classes, interacting more with the professor - via office hours, research, special projects.

  2. Anywhere - just ask. My daughter turned down an LAC and a DC power on the level of those you mentioned because she just loved her school - a regional, solid school - College of Charleston. Research emails, etc. come regularly. Just ask a prof. It might be easier at the “lesser” schools because less kids will be interested but you can everywhere - and most will link to thinks on their department pages.

  3. Depends on the graduate programs - law school - won’t matter - Harvard has over 140 schools in the first year class alone including many or all of these. Penn over 200 colleges in the school. If it’s Public Affairs - won’t matter- but Pitt might have included a grad program with admission. For Poli Sci, likely doesn’t matter but for a PhD maybe - but I don’t think it matters - all these schools will get you to any level of grad school.

  4. Any and all - but you, not the school, will most likely be responsible. Sample of one but my daughter interned a summer for our state and did the DC semester and had 7 internship opportunities, 5 paid. She hustled.

That’s maybe another thing to look at - each school’s DC semester. Some will have their own and others will go through American. Usually an internship is a part of it - but you have to find said internship.

So - now that I brought you back to the entire list - it goes to fit - and I find it hard to believe someone will see an Alabama (huge, pristine, football, suburban) the same as a Pitt (colder, in city, urban) the same as a W&M (more isolated, smaller school).

In other words, I get what you’re saying about your son but it just seems that, stepping foot onto campus each day, you want him happy - and these will all be different.

GMU - fine school.

St. Johns - to me, doesn’t fit the narrative - the great books program won’t necessarily fit all his interests.

AU - it’s where my daughter fell in love with her major - International Studies - at their presentation. But I challenged the prof doing the presentation on the outcomes - and she acknowledged - a double major would be smart. I’m not a huge fan of the value there - I know cost isn’t your thing - but I left thinking you don’t get what you pay for.

GW - again, just so urban, hard to see one loving Alabama and GW :slight_smile: I’d choose over AU solely because it’s all right there - although AU is located by some federal departments - which now seem to be losing headcount. Will that impact internships???

UMASS - if your son struggles with food like many college kids, gets low blood sugar, they’re the top food in the country. It was real for both my kids. I think the 5 college thing might be overrated - Amherst is near but would he use the others?

Pitt is a great all around school - but again, it’s more urban, it’s got big time sports - just a great school.

Bama is pristine - it’s the Disneyland of colleges - it has everything you want but many things kids don’t want. My son chose it over a top 10 engineering (since your son is looking at rank) - and told me rank is overrated (at least in his field) - he was right. What attracted my son was he got his own dorm room (if in Honors), palm trees, and 3 hours closer to mom. Are things like this important to your son - that he might not have thought of?

W&M is likely the one that fits “best” with your categories - at least on paper. A well respected name - but again, no one else can deliver St Andrews - so when you say he doesn’t care about this or that - it’s so different. Or if he doesn’t want to be locked in, can’t he got just to W&M??

Oberlin - has a big musical conservatory - so it’s a great college but has another aspect - so perhaps that might be off putting.

Grinnell - middle of nowhere - but great school.

It and W&M would be the highest level - for someone - solely struck by rank - but you note you aren’t necessarily.

Have you been to these - I go back to - I find it hard to believe someone wouldn’t care about the day to day - so if you’ve been, I think you’d naturally feel a comfort for one over another.

For example, we left the GW tour. Daughter hated it but preferred the more suburban feel of American, etc. Bama was too big.

Anyway, that’s some thoughts - hope they help you somehow.

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How much math would he like in economics? Different economics departments specify different levels of math, so that can be worth investigating across the various colleges.

Note that many STEM majors have voluminous or sequenced prerequisites, so that a student interested in them needs to start on the prerequisites early, usually from the first semester, in order to retain the possibility of doing such a major.

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So my two cents is the first quote is basically the answer to your second quote.

LACs like Grinnell and Oberlin are what I would call very academicky. Lots of the kids there are very into academics, the professors are very engaged with students, since there are no grad students the professors rely on undergrads for research (and LACs these days are giving a lot of institutional funding for undergrad research) . . . and then as a result of all this, they tend to do really well in per capita grad school placement studies. You have to be careful because there is a lot of self-selection involved–among families in the know, kids with such interests are encouraged to consider LACs, really just like I am doing right now. But still, I think it is true they do a really good job supporting kids with such interests.

For a little proof of concept, you could check out the per capita version of these PhD feeder studies:

Overall, Grinnell is #11 on the per capita total PhDs list, and 8 of the 10 ahead of it are more LACs–only Caltech and MIT are higher listed universities. Oberlin is #20, and that only adds Princeton, Harvard, and Chicago as higher listed universities. Pretty interesting.

I also note your son was talking about exploration. This is another characteristic strength of LACs, that it is easy to explore and often combine different interests. This includes at least the natural sciences and math, so the S and M in STEM. Indeed, if you explore those PhD lists in detail, you will see plenty of LACs high on the natural sciences and math lists.

Where it gets more dicey is if you want undergraduate engineering to be an option. There are actually some good paths into engineering through grad school, but if you are interested in knowing an undergrad engineering degree is an option, that would be a reason to maybe not choose an LAC without engineering (a few have it, but not Grinnell or Oberlin).

So as to Pitt, I think the big appeal in my circles is in fact its location. It is a good research university overall, with some particularly strong departments and no real weak departments, but lots of flagship-level universities fit that description. But Pitt is also located right in a nice area in the heart of Pittsburgh, which is overall a fun, friendly, and surprisingly attractive city. In fact, I know quite a few people who visited Pittsburgh for the first time when looking at colleges, and were really surprised by how much they liked it.

But you said your son did not care about location. And the truth is for most residential college students, most of their experience is on or near campus. So I would not insist this should be a big factor him. I would just note it is in fact a significant factor for some kids.

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For a different perspective on this subject, if you look at the available data for the top law schools, while they might have 1 or 2 students from a long list of colleges in a given class, over multiple years you will see many of those colleges sometimes also have 0. And then there are other colleges on the list that regularly have far more than 1 or 2. So I would not necessarily say it is obvious it doesn’t matter if you are looking at College A which typically places 0 to 2 students at a law school versus College B which typically places 20 to 30 at that same law school. Particularly if College B is actually significantly smaller than College A.

Again College Transitions has done studies like this, and they again have a version which controls for student population size:

The LACs are less dominant than they are in PhD studies, but many still do very well. Grinnell and Oberlin do not make this top 30 list, but I would suggest that is in part because these are more academicky and less pre-professional in terms of overall student mix.

And in fact of course there is all sorts of problems with taking data like this at face value. At a minimum you would need to control for LSAT scores. But as noted, then not all students want to go to law school. So you might want to control for law school applicants–or should it be people who started thinking of law school as first years? And so on.

It is really not possible to be sure what, if any, value added effect you might get for top law school admissions from choosing any college. But my personal feeling based on seeing a lot of data on law school admissions over the years is that probably going to a university or LAC with a relative strong per capita placement record in top law schools gives you a little more margin for error on grades.

Like again if College A usually places 0 to 2 students at a given top law school, and particularly if you are talking about something like a large public university, I think usually the students in that 0 to 2 will have had very, very good grades. If it is more like 20 to 30, or perhaps 3 to 5 but you are looking at a relatively small LAC, then I think it is likely more of those students will have good but not necessarily the best grades.

And really, I think in some form all this applies to PhD admissions as well. Grades and PhD admissions are a little more complicated because they may care less about your overall GPA. But I think usually, in one way or another the top PhD programs are looking for the top students in their respective undergrad departments. And sometimes a given undergrad department will be very large, but again it regularly only places a few graduating students in top PhD programs in that field, which means you have to really make sure you are one of the top few graduating students. In other cases, even though the undergrad department is far smaller, it places as many or even more graduating students in top PhD programs in that field.

So while it is true you are not necessarily locked out of top law schools, top PhD programs, or so on by going to a big public university with big departments and yet not that many such placements each year, I do think if you choose such a college you need to be prepared to really do everything possible to be one of the top few students. And not everyone with such ambitions will be able to pull that off.

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We don’t know the type of grad school - I was just trying to cover all angles. I don’t know the likely major (I’m sure OP doesn’t either) or rank they seek.

But my basic point is- as they said will these will get you anywhere (yep, even the tippy top) - and of course if it was an MBA, then rank matters even less so.

So I was trying to be all overarching with a very generic point OP made…if that makes sense.

But I tend to agree with others who say - these kids are 17 - they don’t know what they’ll want at 21 - and that’s what makes it exciting.

So you go in thinking one thing - but that could very well change, weeks, months or years, once you are on campus.

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I agree, but that is part of what is appealing about choosing a highly-resourced institution that is at least pretty good, and often excellent, for basically everything it offers. You can explore around and end up doing whatever best fits your evolving aptitudes and interests, and be confident your college will do a good job supporting that path.

Of course relative to most colleges in the US, flagship public universities fit that description. But then there are some private institutions which are even more highly resourced than most or indeed all flagships, at least per capita.

Which may also mean they are more expensive, particularly if you are full pay. But if you either get good aid or just can comfortably afford the difference, then a person who is interested in exploring might well rationally choose to go with a college that is relatively highly resourced, again particularly per capita.

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Thanks for such a thoughtful response. We do think the day-to-day could matter to our son so are planning to do admitted student day visits but we did do several college visits earlier and that didn’t seem to help with vibe. He has had a lot of exposure living across different countries, frequent moves, very extroverted so truly feels he can adjust in a lot of environments.

Between UMass Amherst and Pitt - any other points to consider?
And what is great about Grinnell that we might not find in other schools on the list?

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Yes, it’s an R1 university. Much more research than going on than at W&M, Grinnell, etc. The weakness of Bama is the lower rigor (possibly ameliorated if the department lets him skip intro courses/take grad courses early) and the lack of an academic-oriented student culture (possibly ameliorated if he stays at Blount hall)

Pro tip for econ: grad programs care more about your math background than your econ background. If he’s interested in grad school for econ or related topics (business, quantitative social science, political science), I suggest he develop a strong math background - e.g. (honors) calculus 3, linear algebra, probability, mathematical statistics.

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William and Mary is also an R1 research university. At 7000 students,it is obviously much smaller than a school like Bama but there is a heavy emphasis on undergraduate research. Unlike some of the larger publics, undergrads are not competing with grad students for research positions. Pretty much everyone does research and students are required to do a year long capstone or honors research project during their senior year.

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These lists are very helpful. Intrigued to see that some of the universities that seem to offer great research opportunities like W&M, BAMA are not even on the lists and others that don’t offer research (like St. John’s) are consistently present.

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The same could be said for honors students at Bama: Capstone Experience | Honors College
And especially for Randall Research Honors students: https://rrsp.ua.edu/

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I worry about admitted student days from this perspective - they are sales events. Some are great though - you get the requisite tour - but if you get a student panel, I found those most helpful. Or academic meetings. If he has interests in a club, you might want to contact and meet up or see facilities.

I think Pitt and UMASS are both essentially flagships. Pitt might have a slight overall better reputation - but does that really translate to a job market, etc.? Pitt is in the city. Amherst is a nice area but not the city. You can take classes at Amherst - but is that free wheeling or only open to classes Umass doesn’t offer - that you might look at.

Both have lots of strengths. Pitt will be the bigger athletic school in that it’s in the ACC. Pittsburgh has an airport - Hartford is farther for UMASS. Not sure if you are flying.

The food, for some, can matter - I have a colleague in Phoenix…she said she’d rather eat at UMASS than any restaurant - that’s high praise.

Given his varied interests, one question you might find is flexibility in changing majors - but usually in one school (Arts&Sciences) that won’t be difficult.

I know Pitt offers a pre-admitted Masters to many.

I didn’t attend so don’t know more than what I know - but have been to both.

Grinnell is a top LAC. If someone wants a top LAC - small, rural, etc. it’s that next tier right below the Williams/Amherst. If you want an LAC…I’m sure it’s phenomenal. Only read good things here and I’m sure it hits all your points. Like a W&M - but much smaller and without a B school in some ways perhaps. It’s 1 hour 5 from the Des Moines airport. It will obviously be easier to know professors…they’ll have less kids. At the same time with under 2K kids could that be limiting in making friends - I don’t know.

Given the interests, you might look at DC programs:

For Pitt, they might have one - but i’m only seeing it through the GSPIA - grad school - so you might ask about undergrad. I’m guessing they do - as an IR or Poli Sci student, that may be of interest.

Here is a UMASS program and Grinnelll.

Plus, I put the Grinnell career outcomes page. I have it set up to Poli Sci but on the left hand side you can change majors and see where people are ending up…quite interesting. And another link of the Rosenfeld Program which might interest. Other schools may have similar - my daughter’s school does, as an example.

In the end, you have a huge flagship (UMASS), mid/large (Pitt) and now a tiny LAC.

What could be different :slight_smile:

SBS in DC – Intern in DC with a cohort of your peers – SBS Pathways | University of Massachusetts Amherst SBS

Off-Campus Study - Grinnell College - Modern Campus Catalog™

Political Science | Grinnell College

Rosenfield Program | Grinnell College

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Pitt’s Econ department has typically been strong. Pair it with a math/stats degree and your son will be well prepared for many possibilities.

Did he get into the Honors program at Pitt? Honors programs at publics can help.

You can get a great education at a large public school. That said, it’s easier to become a number. All being equal I would put smaller schools that give more individual attention higher on the list. GWU, Grinnell and W&M seem like better fits. I know that W&M is public but it seems like a fit. JMHO.

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He must care about the day to day student life though, no? Where does that fall in his list of important considerations? If he gives that some thought, some schools are likely to fall off the list.

So…how does he feel about being in the middle of nowhere at a small school like Grinnell? Or at Oberlin with a high proportion of LGBTQ students outside of the varsity athletes? Does he see himself going to/enjoying sporting events? Greek Life? How politically liberal is he?

If he answers these questions, I do think his choices are going to become more clear.

Regarding his number 3) above…graduate school will depend on him. He can go to a top graduate school from any of these schools. Undergrads getting research is going to be harder in the next few years. Fair to ask all these schools about that. LACs receive relatively less federal research dollars, so that might be a reason to think about Grinnell or Oberlin. With that said, both of those are fit schools, and I would not recommend anyone committing to either school without first visiting.

And similarly 4)…none of these schools are going to actively help him get internships. He will have to hustle and do that on his own. Specifically with the W&M/St Andrews program…it might be relatively more difficult trying to get an an US based internship when he is in Scotland. And getting a paid internship in Scotland is probably very difficult/maybe not possible, something to check into.

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Yeah, the relationship between the research going on at an institution and the research opportunities actually available for undergrads, and then what all that means for something like grad school admissions, is all extremely complicated and can vary a lot by institution, department, and even subfield sometimes.

I do think as a general rule, the competition for what are seen as the “best” undergrad research opportunities at large public research universities can get pretty intense sometimes. And then at the opposite end, LACs which at least provide a lot of institutional support for research (so faculty get funding for student researchers even if that is not part of some sort of external grant) can be relatively chill when it comes to getting research opportunities. But even those generalities are likely violated in various specific circumstances.

Edit: Random addition, but I wanted to note Pitt is actually also part of consortium of local colleges (the Pittsburgh Council on Higher Education (PCHE)), where you can take classes at the other schools, including CMU (by far the most popular option for Pitt students as I understand it). It is definitely designed as a limited program–at most one course per semester, requires advisor approval, no extra tuition but there may be lab fees and such, and so on. But I know some kids use it for advanced classes in their major they don’t have at their home institution, or sometimes just to make a schedule work better.

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It sounds to me like there is still a lot of uncertainty about major. (Econ/IR/Political Science/STEM). This weighs in favor of someplace with wide variation (UMASS/UPITT) or someplace like St. John’s which provides a strong foundation for anything.

If you have not visited “the most rigorous college in America” St. John’s (or the others) for admitted students’ day, I would strongly recommend it. We learned that SJC kids do a number of summer internships (including research at other colleges over the summer) and are guaranteed one to be funded by the school. The Maryland State Offices are right by campus. SJC is very small, but a high percentage of graduates go into PhD programs, law, or medical school. It is true that SJC kids and grads march to the beat of their own drummer, but many grads enter traditional careers and do very well, citing SJC’s preparation as a factor in their success.

Grinnell & Oberlin will also offer an intellectual environment, but their respective locations do not seem to offer exposure to similar opportunities.

I’ll also put in a plug for UMASS Amherst where my older son attends and was able to begin research as a second semester freshman. UMASS is very well run, and opportunities to make the most of things exist (beginning with entering a Residence Academic Program for his major). We were pleasantly surprised by the individual attention my older son has received. You can study just about anything there (or UPITT, which has access to CMU). I would look closely at mobility between majors. Both may have their research curtailed over the next couple years, but if fully funded graduate student numbers decrease, perhaps there will be more opportunities for undergrads.

If your student is fairly focused on IR or Political Science, I’d recommend W&M for the dual degree with St. Andrew’s.

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The point I was trying to make is that there are plenty of research opportunities available at William and Mary as I read your earlier post to suggest that there isn’t much research going on there or at other smaller schools. My son started research fall term of his freshman year as do a lot of William and Mary students. I wasn’t suggesting that a student wouldn’t have research opportunities at Bama. Maybe I missed it, but I don’t think the OP said anything about their kid having been accepted into Randall Research or the honors college at Bama.

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Thanks for your response. We have visited St John’s multiple times and our son also completed a one week summer program there. I think, collectively, our hearts really value the St John’s approach but it feels so out of the mainstream, that we are concerned that we might regret it especially with other options he has in hand. It didn’t help that their internship opportunities bulletin board outside the careers office only had flyers for barista positions. But we are not giving up this option and reaching out to recent alumni to understand their experiences with job/internship searches and graduate school admissions.

I should share that their admitted students day was wonderful. The dean for admissions started by listing out all the books the admitted students had written about (their essay was to write about a book that influenced you, min 450 words, no max word limit - typical!) and people in the audience were taking notes about which of those books should go next on their reading list - it ranged from the Bible to Calvin and Hobbes and everything in between. My son had the biggest smile on his face that day. It was our first ADS so we will see if others can match that experience.

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Did you see their career report?

What would worry me is a huge component go into government (likely not a good place at least in the next four years) and non-profit - ditto as much funding is governmental. A lot are self employed - which is great for those who desire that.

Only 30% or so go into the private sector.

I’m risk averse - so a program like this worries me - just too far out of the mainstream. Are there any programs that might combine both - the school and mainstream?

I do think talking to alums is great and it might be the perfect school - it’s just different - but the fact that your son loves it - the environment - is awesome.

In the end, admitted student days are marketing events - so that he had a big smile, I hope they deliver what they promise.

But maybe that he had that big smile - it is the right school - especially if alums tell you the career preparation was awesome.

I put the career link too - if you look at where they intern, etc., it’s a lot of places that appear to me - are going to suffer from funding shortfalls. Of course, that impacts everyone at every school - but they seem to have a higher percentage of kids seeking non profit type roles and for me at least, that is a concern.

Others, and yourself, may disagree. After all, it is impossible for anyone (myself included) to totally understand the complete fallout or positives of things happening each and every day - as society is changing rapidly.

I’m not intending to be political here in my comment - but simply aware of the surroundings.

Career Success After Graduation from College | St. John’s College

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