Yeah, we were there too. I was impressed with the career panel which included a John’s Hopkins researcher, a house staffer, consultant, lawyer, senior headed to grad school and a senior headed directly into industry. I agree, out of mainstream, which is why we have not deposited yet, but the reality is that most careers require graduate school to really advance (law, medicine, MBA, even teaching, counseling, public administration). So if that is the reality, why not do something different? I’ve no doubt that graduate schools value an SJC education.
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They do? Some, but I don’t think most…but that really depends on the personal desire and organization one ends up in.
Kids who get into T20 schools are typically those who are really good at standardized tests so of course more kids from those schools will get into T14 law schools.
So if you’re a really good test taker who happened to go somewhere else, your chances are probably equal to any other school assuming you have good grades.
That is certainly a plausible hypothesis, but I am personally unsure it would really stand up to careful empirical study (assuming the data was available, which to my knowledge it is not).
The problem I see is that I know while, say, the SAT/ACT enrolled range can be centered significantly higher at highly selective privates than most public flagships, most public flagships also get at least some outlier students way above their normal enrolled range. These are sometimes people in honors programs, or they preferred in-state tuition, or they just loved their flagship growing up, and so on.
I also know that while there is a positive correlation between the SAT/ACT and the LSAT, it is not perfect. This is for various reasons including at this age, brains are still developing, there are learnable skills applicable to each test, preparation can make a difference, and so on. So, one would expect that at least some of the LSAT takers at a large public university should outperform how they did on the SAT/ACT, and some by quite a lot.
OK, so bottom line I would still expect a higher proportion of high LSAT scorers coming from a college that had a higher SAT/ACT enrolled range. But in the case of public flagships and such, I would still expect them to have a decent number of high LSAT scorers in gross terms due to these effects.
OK, so then is what we see in admissions to T14 law schools consistent with this expectation? Again, I don’t know for sure either way, but to me it looks like maybe not. The numbers are just too skewed in my view, meaning once you calculate something like a per capita ratio, the ratios to me seem too large for LSAT scores alone to explain the difference.
Even if true, that still doesn’t explain what else is happening. Again, I personally feel like the margin for error in grades is a real effect, but I wouldn’t claim I had proof of that. Another plausible hypothesis is self-selection–like say you are a high-flying HS student who picks a better financial deal at your state flagship for college. Might you do it again for law school? Of course. Or maybe you get a much better LSAT than your SAT/ACT. Potentially you could turn that into a T14 admission, but maybe you could also turn that into a lot of merit at a still very good law school. Might you choose that? Sure, of course.
Anyway, my point with all this is I am very uncomfortable telling kids we know it doesn’t matter in any case at all which college they choose. On the other hand, I would not be comfortable telling them we know it matters a lot in every case. I do personally think it sometimes matters in some cases, but as for proving that, I admit I cannot. But I don’t think anyone can prove anything different either–we lack the data for that.
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I think another other aspect is that there are a lot more high income families at T20 schools so maybe their kids could more readilly afford to pay T14 law school prices where a high performing state school kids may look for merit scholarships or just attend their state school for law school.
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By the way, I agree with those who are warning any recent past experiences with undergrad research opportunities are potentially not going to apply to students entering colleges now due to what is happening with university research funding.
In addition to that general observation, my two cents is that the more a particular department in your possible field depends on external grants, particularly federal government grants, for research funding, the more risk of past opportunities not existing in the future. But even getting information on that is very tricky, though, particularly at the level of detail you would probably want.
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Yes, absolutely.
This always reminds me of how even when you control for ACT/SAT scores, it appears that expensive private colleges are enrolling more students from expensive private high schools than you would expect if unadjusted grades and test scores were all that mattered.
But there are so many different reasons that could happen. Like you are basically talking about families who already decided once to use more expensive private schools, why would they not be more likely to do it again for college? And then if you look at families who did that for college, why would they not be more likely to do it again for law school?
But is that really a complete explanation? Or is it also true that these colleges might dig a little deeper into classes at high schools where they know the curriculum and trust that even kids a little farther from the top are still well-prepared to succeed at their college? Or might those high schools also provide more opportunities for kids to do things which may not completely replace grades and test scores, but can help the admissions statistics through close cases where secondary factors can make a difference? And so on.
Again without claiming I can prove this, I suspect the answer is usually some form of “all of the above and more”. And I think that is true both at the juncture between HS and college and college and advanced degrees. And not just law schools–I think there are all sorts of reasons kids from these families end up doing disproportionately well in med school admissions, top PhD admissions, and so on. For that matter, I think it can happen with the most selective financial firms, federal government agencies, and all sorts of selective next steps.
And I think sometimes the prior educational path they choose helps the students from those familes achieve those results, without it ever being a simple value-added effect. It is more that if you are a savvy family who knows how to make best use of the academic, and sometimes non-academic, opportunities available at an expensive private HS or expensive private college, then when that works out well for an individual student, it can maybe help with admissions to whatever comes next.
Anyway, bottom line is I personally don’t think that, say, the relatively good placement outcomes we can see with various LACs is entirely a mirage. I think savvy families are using these LACs to help get these results for these kids, not in a simple way but in important ways anyway. They just know the overall system, they know how college can fit into that system, and they are confident about how to work the system at these colleges to their individual benefit.
And yes, sometimes that is among the reasons they might pay more for such a college.
While the recent conversation is interesting, it has veered too far from the OP’s questions. Remember they are under a time constraint to make a decision. 
Please take further discussion to PM or start a new thread. Thank you for your understanding.
I wonder if the current across the board cuts at NIH, CDC, FDA, etc, don’t end up making LACs a better option where to weather the next couple years, since LACs are less likely to have big NIH funding and are more likely to use their own money to fund undergraduate research.
Furthermore, states that have a means to help a little where cuts have been made could also get a nudge.
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St. John’s College has a core curriculum that is the entire curriculum, with a broad liberal arts focus with subjects studied in historical order and contexts. This can be a good academic fit for some students, but not so much for students who want to go more deeply into a subject than is covered there (whether the reason is purely academic interest or pre professional preparation).
Also, the great books may not necessarily be the optimal ways to learn certain subjects. For example, is Newton’s Principia the best textbook to learn calculus and physics from? Probably not, since it is not a common textbook in calculus and physics courses.
Strictly as an educational experience, you can’t beat Grinnell. It has an open curriculum, meaning that there are no required courses except one course each semester of freshman year. Grinnell is one of only about a dozen colleges in the country to employ such an approach.
The key to making an open curriculum approach productive is the advising system. And Grinnell has that in spades. Each course that a student takes at Grinnell is intentional and purposeful, designed to be another step toward a larger goal which is yours and yours only.
Grinnell checks all of the boxes on your list. It is full of bright, motivated students - all the more motivated because they are heavily invested in their classes since they chose them. These students are most definitely engaged. The experience is rigorous and a high percentage of these students will go on to graduate school.
In order for your son to be able to have the opportunity to interact with academically oriented peers that you want, the classes must be small enough for this to happen and the teaching approach must be designed for interactive learning. The student:faculty ratio at Grinnell is 9:1 and almost all classes have fewer than 30 students with most less than 20.
Regardless of which college your son chooses, it will be up to him to line up internships. No college has a pre-made list of internships. Students typically find internships where they live, not so much where the college is. The college can help with the process and Grinnell does this exceptionally well.
I strongly encourage you to look closely into this exceptional opportunity and not to pass it up just because you didn’t know much about it.
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Thanks. Really appreciate this perspective. In terms of other factors, Grinnell is middle of the list in terms of cost and quite far and inconvenient to travel to in terms of location (we are in Maryland). With these additional factors to factor, are there other schools on our list which may be ‘close’ to Grinnell in terms of academic experience?
Oberlin is quite similar, I’d say.
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How did you come to find Grinnell?
There could be others but they are not on your list. From your list, really only W&M although it’s much bigger and more university in so many ways.
Oberlin has aspects but it’s also got a conservatory which is a whole different thing. And I don’t think it’s in Grinnell’s class - but that’s a personal opinion.
Grinnell is far more selective. It accepted 9% of applicants. Oberlin accepted 34% in the arts and sciences portion of the college.
In terms of Grinnell-pros-similarity, I would go Oberlin next, then jump to W&M.
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Has your son considered turning down the JDP at William and Mary and spending all four years in Williamsburg? It just seems that might be a better path for him as it would give him more optionality in terms of majors and minors and would provide a more traditional liberal arts education. He could always do study abroad.
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There are few places which are quite like Grinnell because of its “free inquiry” approach using an open curriculum (no course requirements). On your list, Oberlin is the closest because it is also a small liberal arts colleges and because it utilizes a modified open curriculum. I say modified because a student’s choices are not completely open. Oberlin has “distribution requirements”, which do not specify particular course but which do require a student to take 3 courses each in 4 different curriculum areas for a total of 12 courses, or about a third of those needed for graduation.
How else are Grinnell and Oberlin similar?
- Both offer about 40+ different majors, including Econ and Poli-Sci. Neither offers International Relations but both have other majors or concentrations which are closely related.
- Both will provide mostly small classes, which is essential to having an interactive and discussion based approach to teaching and learning. Grinnell’s student:faculty ratio is 9:1, Oberlin’s is 11:1.
- Both are undergraduate institutions with professors who are continuously conducting research. So, there are greater opportunities for undergraduate research opportunities than there are at a research university where graduate students get the first opportunities for research. The rest of the schools on your list are research universities.
- Both will offer robust advising for course selection and curriculum planning. At neither of these colleges will your son’s program be cookie cutter; it will be personal and individualized.
How are Grinnell and Oberlin different?
Grinnell = 1800 enrollment, 12% admit rate, 9:1
- Oberlin is bigger (3000 enrollment of which 540 are in the conservatory) than Grinnell (1800 enrollment)
- Grinnell (12% admit rate) is more selective than Oberlin (33% admit rate)
- Grinnell has a more sophisticated advising system, making course selection and program planning even more personal and individualized. This is a key difference because It is at the very core of what Grinnell does and what makes it special.
- Internships are a cornerstone of the Grinnell program. They claim to have access to 3000+ internships and they offer funding for internships that are low pay or no pay to insure student access. Oberlin also strongly encourages internships and has a new Internship+ program which offers $5000 grants for post internship research projects.
I encourage you to check the websites for more detailed information. You can’t get through the Grinnell website without bumping into information about their free inquiry approach and their distinctive models for teaching &learning and for student guidance.
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Well, honestly, initially we did not consider anything away from the east coast but in the last days of application, we decided to spread the net wider. There was a lot of fatigue with essays so we looked for good colleges that did not have an essay requirement and Grinnell fit the bill (though later they did ask for an optional essay that we did submit).
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Yes, that is definitely an option we are considering.
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Thank you for this detailed response.
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