Is it possible - I don’t know - that you can accept the 2+2 with St Andrew’s but then withdraw second semester - thus giving time to keep it an option ?
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I believe students can drop out of the Joint Degree Program at any time - but in the interest of not spreading misinformation, OP should confirm that with William and Mary. There will be representatives from the JDP at the upcoming Day for Admitted Students.
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Grinnell and Oberlin are such excellent opportunities. If I had a kid considering these social science/humanities options, I’d lean strongly in this direction, actually.
I think sometimes it’s easy to read too much about college culture into acceptance rates (e.g. RPI has a higher acceptance rate than a lot of schools but the students there have academic profiles comparable to those at some of the more rejective state universities and liberal arts colleges.) For what it’s worth, Oberlin and Grinnell accepted students have very similar standardized test scores (with roughly half the students at each school submitting tests for consideration).
Oberlin impressed us when we visited last year, and I was not expecting to be impressed. I think I had a sort of caricatured idea of it in mind due to it being a sort of avatar of liberal excess in the minds of (I guess the media?) It felt like a life-of-the-mind sort of school to us. The students we met seemed purposeful, independent, mutually supportive, intellectual. The town is surprisingly hip (has a terrific bakery, great Thai food, amazing pizza, farm-to-table stuff, a huge bookstore, etc.) and is basically contiguous to the campus. The conservatory (to me) is a feature, not a bug – you have world-class musicians teaching and performing all the time. The campus architecture is diverse and interesting and campus is spread out over a spacious 440 acres. I appreciated how many students were pursuing double majors (itself a sign to me of more intellectually charged environment) and it didn’t feel quite as pre-professional as a couple of other LACs that we visited. (You can see here that Oberlin is one of the higher producers of PhDs per capita. Grinnell is still higher on this list. The other schools that you’re considering – w/ the exception of Pitt – don’t make the list at all.)
We never visited Grinnell, although at the outset I was hoping to. It didn’t fit into our first tour of midwestern liberal arts colleges and soon thereafter our son announced that he probably wanted to study engineering and so it became moot. But our cousin who went there (shy, nerdy, very into fiber arts, theater, Arthurian legends, baking with artisanal grains, and creative reenactment) loved it and found her people there (there are going to be other people there too – I think even at Grinnell her interests were somewhat niche.)
I don’t think either school registers very high on the post-college earnings surveys. But depending on your child’s goals, I think both should be seriously considered – especially if he liked St. John’s.
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I agree that acceptance rate doesn’t necessarily reflect the quality of education/strength of the student body. Our older daughter got into both Grinnell and Oberlin with generous merit back in 2020. We considered them to be peer schools, along with Kenyon and Macalester. We visited them all, and everywhere we saw intellectual, well-spoken, interesting and engaged students. Our daughter ended up choosing Kenyon but she could see herself in any of these schools. A couple of weeks ago, we visited Oberlin again with her younger sister (who is interested in the conservatory potentially) and loved it again. This is why I mentioned Oberlin as the closest equivalent of Grinnell on your list.
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Couldn’t agree more with this. I’ve said it before in other threads, but my oldest graduated Oberlin in 2023 and had a fantastic experience. We were blown away by the fully funded internship opportunities that Oberlin makes happen- she had a fully funded summer internship in NYC the summer after her junior year that included rent, travel, spending, etc. for the summer. Their alumni network is AMAZING. Many alumni offer internships for students (including my daughter) and she had a fantastic job lined up in NYC before she graduated, thanks in part to another Oberlin alumni. Very cool campus and town- lots of intellectual, inclusive, creative, kids from all over the country and world.
Oberlin was not at the top of my kid’s list initially, but we went to accepted students day and were sold. Our tour guide that day also mentioned the fully funded internships and I honestly thought it must be exaggerated. It wasn’t.
Something else worth mentioning in terms of location; Oberlin is in close proximity to Cleveland, which is a super cool, vibrant, cultural city. Oberlin runs regular shuttles there and while at Oberlin my D attended a number of amazing shows/concerts there.
Go visit if you can!
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After lots of admitted student days visit, our son is leaning heavily towards GWU, primarily because of its location and the opportunities it offers. He loved being in the center of the action, and that professors are practitioners, being close to politics and the fact that its close to home. He saw the event notices on various billboards and the prospect of being able to listen directly from ambassadors, political figures etc. is very exciting for him. He reasons it will be a more international environment than even the JDP at W&M. We are a bit surprised honestly as we thought he would lean towards more intellectual and traditional college campus feels. He has written down his reasoning in detail. The school is not as strong in research as his other options but he feels that being able to work at thinktanks etc. will make up for it. We are happy to support his decision but also want to pressure test it. What other questions/considerations should we have?
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Congrats - if someone really likes something, then it must be right - at least for an initial decision.
It could be he likes - not being in the middle of nowhere - Bama, Oberlin, Grinnell.
No doubt they have more access to “political figures” than other schools. My daughter has heard several ambassadors speak and was taught by a government official at her school (not in DC) but could it be done in those #s? No.
Not sure there are any other questions - because he obviously likes the location. And with the “changes” in DC which aren’t good for careers, maybe being there to witness first hand will be good. Mine was there during the Oct 7th attack and thereafter and while she was afraid, it was also a huge learning opportunity to witness things firsthand (from a distance).
And I’m sure there are enough research opportunities at the school. As for think tanks - I’m not sure as an undergrad you are doing the high level stuff - but you do get exposed. My daughter worked at one for a semester - a famous one - and it taught her that she wouldn’t like it - which is as valuable as I would like it.
Would it be more international than the W&M program. I suppose one could argue that in their minds. I don’t think so - but it’s a different kind of international and it’s subjective. And he can still study abroad.
If the environment stuck to him that much - then I think - that it’s the right environment. As you noted it’s not traditional - and that likely suits him well. I think what hit him hits a lot of GW students btw!!
Congrats to him for finding a home - that’s what matters - he felt at home!!!
As long as you can afford it (you said up front you weren’t considering costs at this point), then it’s a home run given the passionate response he had!!
Best of luck and congrats on having such a strong feeling.
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I mean, his sense that GW is right in the heart of the global DC political scene is exactly correct.
I might note that Foreign Policy magazine does surveys of the top schools for IR, helpfully broken down by Undergrad, Masters, and PhDs:
In this latest addition they actually broke it down further with separate survey results for IR faculty, policymakers, and think tank staffers, but for GW it didn’t really matter as it was #9, #8, and #8 respectively for undergrad. Note these are technically global rankings, but US institutions dominate the undergrad rankings (which I think reflects an actual attitude among at least a lot of foreign policy folks about what sort of educational approach is best for an undergrad interested in an inherently interdisciplinary area like IR).
I also sometimes like to look at EduRank, just because it is an empirical, research-based ranking. Of course the relationship between research and undergraduate education is complex, and lots of LACs and such would not appear on such lists but be excellent for undergrad. Still, when looking at research universities, I think it can be worth considering. Here is IR again:
They have GW #6 in the US, #12 in the world.
Of course you only described a possible interest in IR, but my point is it is not at all wrong that GW has leveraged its enviable physical position in DC into an academic position as one of the top undergrad programs and top research universities for IR.
And in fact, if he, say, ended up in Economics but with a public policy or IR sort of application interest, that is unsurprisingly a strong research area for GW as well. Like EduRank does subfield rankings in Economics, and they have GW #20 in the US for Political Economy, #20 for International Economics, and #23 for International Trade. Again not really a surprise, this is just a true thing about GW, that it is very strong in research in this general focus area across multiple related fields and subfields.
Anyway, point being there are a lot of outside sources that would support the idea that someone like your son with your son’s priorities SHOULD be very interested in GW! Including for academics and research, at least if he is in that general global politics and economics sort of area.
And so if everything clicked on a visit, maybe that is just the answer. And that would be great, it is nice when everything lines up like that.
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Oberlin and Grinnell are two very good LACs, and if he wants rigor and intellectualism, they should definitely be considered – LACs are typically thought to be more intellectual in vibe than (most) universities. He will have smaller classes at those two schools than he will at the universities.
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At UMass he would be able to branch out and supplement his large-school experience with the benefit of some LAC immersion: he would be able to take classes at Amherst, Smith, Mount Holyoke, and Hampshire. At Pitt, he would be able to cross-register at CMU and Duquesne.
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Thank you. This is so useful and validating. Where can we find more information on graduate school admission outcomes for GWU?
I think I linked this before, but you can get some very limited information here about PhD placements:
They only do top 50 for each reported field, which is pretty limiting, and in general these sorts of lists have a lot of issues in terms of properly controlling for self-selection and other non-college-dependent factors.
Still, as you would more or less expect, GW was #25 for Econ, #33t for History, and #28t for Poli Sci. This is its core cluster of strong areas.
Then it is also #33t for Anthro. Probably less relevant to your kid specifically, but interesting.
This is all totals, by the way. It is basically being bumped from the per capita lists by a bunch of LACs and such, which can do really well in per capita PhD placement, not least in these sorts of fields. Again, though, lots going on there, including a self-selection effect where people who are serious about competitive higher education are more likely to strongly consider LACs.
But anyway, I would say with your kid’s interests, and assuming a preference for a research university over an LAC, GW is very likely to provide the support needed for competitive grad school admissions. The rest will be up to him, as would be true anywhere.
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You can use this link to filter government data (that is what College Transitions uses) yourself.
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