W&M vs. UVA vs. UNC vs. SMU for Business/Pre-Law/Econ

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You can still get back to mid-Atlantic. It is more likely SMU grads focus on other locations including DFW area rather than lack of opportunity for them in the mid-Atlantic. It might be a little more challenging than schools right in that region but you should be fine coming from SMU with those credentials and could do law school in region if law school is still of interest post graduation.

Re-visit to confirm and get the BBA report (I think I have seen it before but could be misremembering). Congrats as that is an amazing opportunity. If you aren’t sure on fit, you do have other great options!

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OK - pre law isn’t a major - but I get it law school after

So you want to be in the mid atlantic so the first three are perfect - no wrong choice.

But then #4 is free through the Presidential Scholarship - and well, that saves you $250K.

How are you going to pay for any tuition (you said 1/3)?

Hmmmm - given you’d need to come up with big money (unless you killed it in the stock market as a HS student, I assume you don’t have - and then what about law school - another $250-300K. You can’t get the loans you need - even with your HS money - and even if so, after fees and interest, you set yourself back years (after law school)…and for no reason.

Honestly, based on what you wrote, you have no choice but to go to SMU. And it’s a great school - and the Presidential Scholars program puts you at the top of the heep - and you get international travel and other enrichment.

SMU is a great school - and joining the ACC, it will now be paired with UVA and UNC in sports.

Life is long - you have lots of time to move to the mid-Atlantic - but doesn’t sound like you can afford to now.

And SMU is giving you the gift of helping to fund law school later.

To me, it doesn’t seem like there’s much to debate here.

Best of luck whatever you decide. And congrats - getting the Presidential at SMU is a HUGE honor and not easy at all!!

As for law school - to go to Top 14 - well Harvard’s first year class is represented by 147 schools - and they only have 500+ students…schools like Auburn, Kansas State, Montclair State.

Yale, in the last 5 years, had 169 schools represented - Oregon State, Utica, Youngstown State. Penn Law has 239 schools represented - Southern New Hampshire U, Kentucky, Ole Miss, UNCC.

You know who gets to top law schools - studs!!! Kids that can ace the LSAT.

Likely kids who get into schools like UNC, UVA and win one of the most prestigious scholarships in the country at SMU. It just show happens that these kids initially chose other colleges at first - maybe for money or to be close to home or maybe they developed academically later.

Going to SMU vs. UVA or UNC - is not going to impact your path to law school.

Only you can do that.

The top 14 are loaded with kids from hundreds of colleges - many with no prestige at all. Others will say - well yeah but the concentration from such and such is higher. Of course it is, they had more studs to begin with. But the diversity of schools represented in classes that aren’t that large - goes to show you - that if you’re a stud and crush the LSAT, you have endless opportunity when it comes to the where of law school. Today, top law schools are also seeking racial and socioeconomic diversity - and that can help too.

Best of luck and congrats on having an amazing opportunity (especially at SMU).

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23

Congratulations on some great options. Given that you are considering law school here is some context from Yale which is representative of the T-14.

bulletin.yale.edu

yale-law-school-2019-2020.pdf

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This hopefully provides you with an idea of the concentration of students from some undergraduate schools into elite law schools. Please note 287 students from the Ivies and an extra 50+ from Stanford, Duke and UC. That means that greater than 50% of Yale’s law students attended only 11 undergraduate schools that are relatively small in terms of number of students.

Yes, you can get in from anywhere (particularly schools such as your options) but it is much more an exception from non elite schools. An aspiring elite law student shouldn’t ignore the importance of undergraduate pedigree because the stats don’t lie, it matters.

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And here’s current info from Yale for you vs. older info. I put Harvard and Penn for you as well (on Penn, you might have to open the View List of undergraduate schools dropdown.

Best of luck whatever you decide.

In the end, we all have wants - but you don’t stay at the Ritz Carlton if all you afford is the Holiday Inn Express.

That’s not an apt analogy because - SMU is EXCELLENT and not far from UVA/UNC - but I noted it that for affordability purposes - where the analogy does, in my opinion, work.

Undergraduate Institutions Represented (YLS 2020-24) | Yale Law School

Undergraduate Institutions - Harvard Law School | Harvard Law School

Entering Class Profile • Admissions • Penn Carey Law (upenn.edu)

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Unfortunately, most current law school profiles fail to give granular numbers of attendance by undergraduate school. We can ponder why, but it does seem highly self serving in terms of false expectations.

Consequently it masks the continued trend of the vast majority of students having attended a relatively small number of schools. Of course there are the aberration of one off kids from various lesser name schools but it is clearly easier to gain admissions from a T25.

It matters, otherwise why are more than 50% still matriculated from less than a dozen schools with a total combined student body of around 70,000 kids. A dozen schools had about 340 kids attending Yale, while for example, University of Alabama has 2 kids out of 40,000 students. 340 of 70,000 vs 2 of 40,000 isn’t a subtle difference, it clearly matters.

It is the difference between playing the lottery and actually having a plan that has verifiably been proven successful.

I would also suggest your optionality and outcomes are better if you happen to be the #33 kid from Harvard when Stanford Law only accepts #1-32. Unlike the kid who went to no name state that was stellar but not number #1 at their school the middle tier of top school kids still has a ton of great national and often global opportunities.

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of course coming from an elite college is going to boost your application some. but it’s hard to say how much. there are so many factors involved. how many kids at, say, U of Alabama, are actually applying to law school at all, and how many of those want apply to Yale Law, and how many of those that get in decide it’s worth their $ to go, when so many of them probably want to stay near home and settle near Alabama? you have to remember how many kids at state unis are from that state and intend to stay there, which is not the case at the elite private colleges.

there is also a snob factor- the kids who choose to go to elite colleges often just can’t stomach the idea of being in a less prestigious place. so they keep going down that path even if it’s not financially smart or necessary for their career goals.

there are financial factors. they kids who choose to pay top $ for elite colleges might just have more comfort paying out for elite law school too, whereas the same kids who saved $ and went to Bama might still have the same hesitancy to shell out their dough when they can go to much cheaper law schools.

As far as I know we don’t have any data showing the relative percentages of kids applying and getting rejected to top law schools broken down by college.

I’m sure there is an advantage coming from elite colleges. there is in all walks of life, and it’s kinda dumb when we all know how much coddling and grade inflation goes on at some of those colleges. but we also know that the top law schools have plenty of students from non-elite colleges. those kids might have to work a little harder to get there but they certainly can do it…

…which, by the way, is exactly why those are the kids I would be looking to hire if I was an employer.

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You are entitled to your biases, but I have hired a large number of kids from varied financial, social and educational backgrounds and those hiring experiences would make me reluctant to generalize or use terms such as “those are the kids”.

With this I agree.

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I don’t know why people default to Yale as the example for why pedigree may matter, it’s an outlier. I went to a different T5 law school and the most students from any one school was Harvard with seven. The next most was five, from Michigan. There were only three or four from the law school’s affiliated undergrad. Performance in undergraduate matters much more than pedigree for the vast majority of the T14 law schools.

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29

I’m assuming if you got into some of these top programs and the SMU presidential scholarship, you must have done well on the SAT/ACT.

If you’re good at standardized tests (which is a big factor in getting into a T14 law school), that will really increase your chances.

The second factor is grade inflation. We know many Ivies have massive grade inflation which is one reason why so many get into T14’s/ (along with the fact they are usually great at standardized testing).

Choose a school that is very liberal with giving A’s.

That’s your formula for law school.

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So, my question would be, what is the trade-off with going somewhere for free that is not as prestigious instead of Dartmouth, UNC, or UVA? Is there just a lesser chance that I get into a top school?

I am hesitant to swallow the $250-350k price tag to have a (slightly?) better chance of getting into a T14 law school. I guess my predicament is that I cannot guarantee I will be the top dawg at the end of the four years at SMU, but I can make an educated guess that with the extra resources they’re offering and it not being as prestigious a school, I could ultimately be or close to it.

And at UVA, Dartmouth, or UNC, I am fairly certain that I would not be top-dawg but does just being middle of the pack there put me in the same comparison, or better, as a proverbial #1 at SMU?

Thank you all for your wonderful input so far, as each opinion has been very helpful!

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31

another thing about the big public uni’s is there are so many different majors at these schools that students pursue careers with: poultry science, addiction and recovery, nursing, nutrition, interior design…there is just a wider variety of career paths. a higher percentage of kids at elite colleges are pre-law to begin with, I’m sure.

the real question is how many kids from public uni X wanted to go to elite law school Y and got rejected. I would love to know this data but I doubt it’s available.

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Personally I think SMU will provide a more than adequate springboard for your stated ambitions. I wouldn’t take on debt.

That said I think it important you make that decision fully informed and aware. I also wouldn’t give much weight to any of us strangers who don’t know you. Talk to your parents they love you and know you best. We all have the unintended biases of our life experiences which shouldn’t apply to you.

It’s personal but that is my opinion.

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33

So, overall, I think I am pretty good at standardized tests, as I got 1480 without studying very much, and I took it at the height of stress for some extracurricular activities I am involved in.

I think much of the strength in my application to these schools was my extracurricular activities’ cumulative ‘story’ (local, state, and national, with a heavy emphasis on community building politically and philanthropically), which I seemingly see as not as important for LS admissions. I am not an expert on law admissions, so please correct me if I am wrong. Nevertheless, I feel the ‘story’ component of my application to any LS has the greatest potential to stand out, as I am confident I can aim for the minimum stats for consideration (hopefully).

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I totally agree–thank you!

I will soon sit down with a local Dartmouth alumni to get their thoughts. One of my parents is a first-generation college student, and the other has not gone, so most of this is new for my family.

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Your EC’s wont matter much.

The primary factors are undergraduate grades and LSAT. And unlike the SAT, there’s been numerous studies that show a correlation between high LSAT scores and law school performance. There’s no test optional on this one.

Candidly, if you want to go to a T14 law school, you’re going to have to score in the 99th percentile on the LSAT.

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36

SMU is more than prestigious enough to get you to top law schools. and it sounds like you are in a special program there to top it off, so they will take care of you.

there are for sure some colleges that might (MIGHT) be worth the investment, as they might allow access to an inner sanctum of uber wealth that and lifelong respect that the rest of us can’t even imagine. but that is a very small number of colleges and I don’t think the ones you are accepted to, prestigious as they are, are in that category to justify turning down the free ride.

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Although Im not an expert on SMU, they have a very well known Alt investment program that seems to be a feeder for some of the best jobs.

However, what I dont know is if you get into this program, how hard they grade and if there’s some tough curve.

Any school with a tough curve will probably be your biggest potential land mine.

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Is finding the typical curve of a school, such as SMU, just something to ask admissions about?

Most people where I live are not super familiar with SMU either, so it’s been tough to find true insight into student life or factors such as grade inflation there besides visiting a few times. And then again, on visits, I feel like anywhere, they want to show you the best side of things and not potential pitfalls.

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Go to SMU and rock it and then go to UNC or UVA for law school and you’ll be at a great school in your desired area. Not sure why people are talking about Yale. Did I miss you saying you wanted to go to Yale?

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First off, it doesn’t matter how many Harvard kids go to law school - because we are talking about UVA vs. UNC vs. SMU. OP mentioned a top 14 for law school - so I brought up the comparators for top 14 law schools that publish this data.

Secondly, we know that kids from a certain area go to law schools in those areas.

So at UVA, they have more UVA grads than any other school. They have 299 kids from 72 schools. After UVA, their biggest schools represented are UGA (8), Alabama (7) and six from W&M, George Mason, NYU, Michigan, Penn and Va Tech. This is for the #8 law school in the country. Notice there’s no Harvard, Yale in their top schools…why, it’s the regional bias of all schools.

And yes, the LSAT is 170 - and that’s the key - no matter where you go, etc.

But back to my initial comment, based on what you provided, you cannot afford anything other than SMU.

It’s great when people tell you to go to schools you can’t afford, then followed by 3 years of law school - but who is paying for all this?

I personally don’t understand how anyone could recommend an unaffordable option to anyone.

But guess what - go to UVA or go to UNC and and a 160 on the LSAT - and you’re not going to a T14 law school.

Go to Radford and UNCW and get a 170+, there’s a much better chance you are.

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