<p>mini, I don’t think you addressed luckysmom’s point. While it may be true that those who start drinking later are less likely to become problem drinkers, how do you know that the people who start drinking early don’t do so because they have a tendency to alcoholism? In other words, how do you know that delaying drinking in a particular individual makes it less likely that he becomes an alcoholic?</p>
<p>“Zoos, we don’t drink any hard liquor at all (only beer and wine, and even that is more occasional) and neither DH have ever been drunk in our lives, in front of our children or before they were born.”</p>
<p>We haven’t either. Hubby and I grew up in non-drinking families and as I always like to say, “alcohol is an acquired taste that I’ve never acquired.”
We’re not fanatics by any means and would never impose our views on others. We’re simply non-drinkers who don’t have the stuff in the house. My daughter has never been particularly interested in alcohol but we do talk about it because she goes to an affluent private school where drinking is rampant. We find it ok to model for her the choice not to drink and the ability to have a great time sober. I do see what you mean with extremists, though, but extremism in most things is, well, extreme!</p>
<p>“In other words, how do you know that delaying drinking in a particular individual makes it less likely that he becomes an alcoholic?”</p>
<p>We know nothing about "individual proclivities’, obviously, and that is not something that can be captured in longitudinal studies. The only way we know for sure if someone has a proclivity to become alcohol dependent is if they become alcohol dependent. HOWEVER, the studies by Grant and Dawson, DO control for the effects of sex, race, age, duration of drinking, family history of alcoholism and current drinking status (that is "current - past year - drinker versus “former” drinker.) </p>
<p>If you go in with the mindset that those who will become alcoholics or drug addicts will become so anyway (because of “proclivities”), you end up flying against all the evidence for environmental influences, including availablity, which exist both within cultures and communities and across them. It really isn’t an intellectually defensible position (though it sure would feel good! especially to alcoholics and drug addicts, and their parents, who could then claim that they have no culpability, and to public officials, who could claim the same. The alcohol industry would really love you, though. ;))</p>
<p>Once you begin with the truism that individuals who have never seen alcohol because it doesn’t exist where they are don’t become alcoholics, the rest is just numbers. Look at it another way: has the percentage of individuals addicted to nicotine declined by 50% over the past 40 years because the “individual proclivity” has disappeared?</p>
<p>mini, I’d be interested in seeing your “overwhelming amount of data” on binge drinking in Ontario. As I said, I have kids in college in both countries, and the situations couldn’t be more different.</p>
<p>No where, in any of the messages I’ve posted on this issue here have I mentioned binge drinking even once. </p>
<p>There are other studies on the relationship between college binge drinking and future alcohol problems/alcoholism that I have posted elsewhere, but not here. (Those studies, by the way, do not show a huge association between the two, other than the association that indicates that “heavy” (as opposed to “binge”) drinkers are much more likely to have alcohol problems/become alcoholics over the next decade.) So the degree to which binge drinkers are also heavy drinkers, there is an association, but one can’t go further than that.</p>
<p>as a college student, most of the people I know drink, though many of them not very often. From personal experience, it seems like the people who drink the most are the ones who already drank before coming to college. Yes, people who didn’t drink in high school do start in college, but the vast majority of those kids seem to keep themselves under control. Most of the people who drink until they get sick were already drinkers.</p>
<p>I have a good friend who just finished her freshmen year at school and is/was very close to being kicked out for alcohol reasons. She had posted pictures on webshots, which her parents found, and they told her to stop partying so much (needless to say it didn’t happen and the pictures just moved to facebook). But then when she was home for her birthday, her parents bought her alcohol. Mixed messages much? I know other parents who buy let (either actively or passively) their kids have parties / go drinking while their at home and personally I don’t understand it.</p>
<p>
I agree with Mini that while the idea of removing the forbidden fruit aspect of alcohol seems logical, it’s risky. The bigger question to me is, “Why are teenagers drinking?” An article I read recently talked about alcohol and drug abuse as symptoms of depression. If a teenager is drinking, this should be considered.</p>
<p>Okay, then, mini, please show me the “overwhelming amount of data” which disprove my ‘theory’.</p>
<p>sjmom, my point was not just the ‘removing the forbidden fruit’ issue but rather the modelling of responsible drinking before the kids go off to college and are on their own. I’ve lived and worked on college campuses both in the U.S. and in Canada for most of my adult life. I have many family members and friends who are professors, deans, etc. who are in daily contact with hundreds of college kids. In my experience, there IS a definite difference between the kids in Canada and the kids in the U.S. and their drinking habits and problems. I also have kids of my own at schools in both countries and their observations are similar. The kids at the U.S. schools are much more likely to drink heavily, to get drunk, to drink shots quickly, on a regular basis than the kids in Canada who are able to go out with friends (legally) to a restaurant or pub and have a pizza and a beer or two. The incidence of drunk driving by teens and young adults is also not the problem it is in the U.S. There was a lecture given at U of T this year by someone who has studied the issue on both sides of the border as it relates to problem drinking, class attendance, job absenteeism, etc., comparing the legal drinking ages and the differences were startling.</p>
<p>"We know nothing about "individual proclivities’, obviously, and that is not something that can be captured in longitudinal studies. The only way we know for sure if someone has a proclivity to become alcohol dependent is if they become alcohol dependent. HOWEVER, the studies by Grant and Dawson, DO control for the effects of sex, race, age, duration of drinking, family history of alcoholism and current drinking status (that is “current - past year - drinker versus “former” drinker.)”</p>
<p>I didn’t see how a study could be designed to address luckysmom’s point, which I think is a good one. I’m certainly not arguing in favor of allowing kids to drink. I came from an alcoholic family, drink minimally myself, selected my husband for minimal drinking, and worry about my sons. I will do everything I can to keep them from having that first taste of alcohol too early (in my view, before adulthood is too early). But as an academic point, I don’t see that there is proof that preventing someone from drinking early will lower the odds that that person becomes a problem drinker.</p>
<p>In Europe too, where kids are drinking at 14 and 15, there is much less binge drinking, drunk driving, and general ridiculous drunken behavior than is seen in the US.</p>
<p>There may not be studies done on this (or there may, but I am too busy or lazy to Google right now), but again, this is my anecdotal experience with my own European relatives, and my own experience as an early alcohol sipper.</p>
<p>Disclaimer: We have no alcoholism in the family; my attitude would likely differ if we did.</p>
<p>I have no real problem with parents allowing their own teenagers to drink in the home as long as it is done responsibly. I have a big problem with parents allowing a house full of other people’s teenagers get wasted in their homes. To me that is the apex of irresponsibility. Of course, that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.</p>
<p>Can you explain your conclusion about the alcohol companies? What actions are evident that lead you to the conclusion that these companies promote underaged drinking?</p>
<p>Our kids see models of responsible drinking & non-drinking all around them. They are aware people drink to varying amounts & when they ask, we let them have a sip of whatever we’re drinking on the rare times we have anything alcoholic. They do not like the way they feel when taking required prescription drugs & hate feeling in any way out of control, so I have very strong doubts that they will “overindulge,” but who knows?<br>
It saddens me that there are so many folks – young & old – who drink to excess. I honestly don’t understand it very well. It seems a VERY costly habit in terms of medical risks & other health issues, in additional to the direct financial costs. In the US, I believe many kids see alcohol as the predominant beverage when their folks “party,” & in their parents lives–it doesn’t surprise me that such kids adopt similar values.</p>
<p>I feel that proper education about drinking is a parental responsibility. First and foremost, teach by example. We are not tea tottlers by any means, enjoying wine with a meal and a cold beer after mowing the lawn on a hot day.</p>
<p>We did offer our son wine during dinner once he became a hs senior provided he was not going out soon afterwards. He usually declined but occasionally drank a glass if a white wine was being served. Europeans typically find it totally acceptable for older teens to be offered wine with the meal and it seems alcohol abuse is typically less common than in the USA. If any other teens are eating with us we do not have wine or beer with the meal.</p>
<p>I know many will be abhorred with our attitude but the alternative is to hope that they learn responible drinking on their own among other teens, typically in a party setting. Not much of a chance for success IMHO.</p>
<p>My mantra about drinking is that if you are consuming it as a beverage, you are okay. If you are consuming for any other reason, don’t.</p>
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<p>I agree… But, does that go for chocolate, too??? </p>
<p>There is another active thread in Parent Cafe from a young teen whose dad is an alcoholic. He (or she) has some concerns. maybe some of you that know a lot about drinking and its affects can share some wisdom and kindness there. Thanks.</p>
<p>the thread is called “To the Dads Out There” but moms and dads are posting to it.</p>
<p>for chocolate? Er, no!</p>
<p>Soccerguy315 (post #26), </p>
<p>I read your post with much relief. S has not given us trouble in HS re: alcohol use (he’s a soccer guy, too, and the athletic code probably helped him in his choices). I was interested in your observations that kids who started drinking in college seemed to stay in control better than those who started in HS.</p>
<p>Does this jive with others’ experiences? Here’s hoping!</p>
<p>“Can you explain your conclusion about the alcohol companies? What actions are evident that lead you to the conclusion that these companies promote underaged drinking?”</p>
<p>I have about 30 citations here in front of me - a simple one is that “Alcohol advertisements in magazines expose youth ages 12-20 to 45% more beer advertisments and 27% more advertisements for distilled spirits than adults of legal drinking age.”</p>
<p>Garfield, CF, Chung, PJ, Rathouz, PH. “Alcohol advertising in magazines and adolescent readership,” Journal of the Amreican Medical Assocation, 289, (2003)</p>
<p>Foster, SE, Vaughan, RD, Foster, W., Califano, JA, “Estimate of the Commercial Value of Underage Drinking and Adult Abusive and Dependent Drinking to the Alcohol Industry,” Archives of Pediatric and Adolescenet Medicine, Vol. 160, May 2006.</p>
<p>These guys aren’t dumb. In fact, it’s a two-fer. They can get young drinkers to drinker now, and increase up to fourfold the likelihood that they will become abusive and/or dependent (alcoholic) drinkers later. Smart business practice! ;)</p>
<p>Chiming in on Allmusic’s comments:
It’s true, kids in Europe are drinking at age 14, 15, and much younger. The French give their young children wine, watered down, and gradually decrease the amount of water as they get older. It is perfectly acceptable and expected in France to drink wine with dinner at age 14 or 15.</p>
<p>Here in Munich, it is not unusual to see young teens drinking beer. My childrens’ school has a half-day during Oktoberfest so kids can attend – the biggest beer party in the world. Theoretically, the minimum drinking age is 16 but nobody ever checks IDs. Beer and wine are served at every school function. After the last high school concert one of the parents gave cold bottles of beer to all the kids, and when I objected, the kids and that parent looked shocked and said “But it’s traditional!” High school kids go to clubs and bars starting around grade 9, and a percentage of them do get trashed. Most don’t, though, even though they are “free” to do so. My kids go out, but they choose to be non-drinkers, there are plenty of kids who party with everyone but don’t drink.</p>
<p>Drinking alcoholic beverages is a deeply traditional part of many cultures – wine and champagne in France and parts of Italy and Germany, beer in Germany, the Czech Republic and Belgium, vodka in Scandinavia and the Russian republics, etc. etc. </p>
<p>It’s up to you to decide what message you want to send your kids, but I can tell you that taking the narrow view puts you and your child in the minority on the world stage. Maybe it’s better to teach them how to handle alcohol in a sophisticated manner (as well as every other “adult” thing they will be exposed to). Most kids that I know that grow up around light alcohol consumption consider binge drinkers boring and embarrassing.</p>
<p>Oh, and the DRIVING age is 18. So very few high-schoolers drink and drive. It’s very expensive to learn to drive, they take it seriously here. Penalties for drinking and driving are severe.</p>
<p>How do kids get around (or get home after they’ve been out)? They take the train or bus. </p>
<p>Just providing a point of information
A.M.</p>
<p>Don’t be so hard on them. No, it’s not the brightest idea…but in some cases their intentions are in the right place.</p>
<p>I know one parent who hosted a small afterprom party…they knew the kids were going to go out drinking. So rather than push it underground where she had no control over their safety, she supplied alcohol and confiscated everyones car keys until the next morning. I also believe the other parents knew what was going on.</p>
<p>Obviously the best way to avoid trouble is just not to drink…but from the parents point of view, they were going to go out and drink anyway. In my opinion, if underage drinking is going to happen it is at least a little better if its in a controlled environment.</p>
<p>On a side note </p>
<p>My opinion is the same about drinking age…It’s very common at college for someone to have an upperclassman buy a case of beer, ect. But they can’t bring it back to the dorm, so they end up binge drinking to get rid of it all…or they end up drinking in a totally uncontrolled environment. Most college students drink anyway, the only people I know that don’t are those who have made a personal choice not to drink. If the drinking age was 18, I think the same amount of people would be drinking…but I really think binge drinking would go down if it wasn’t so underground. As it stands, you end up with 18 year olds drinking with other 18 year olds and the only lessons they learn are from their own mistakes…if they’re going to drink, it might as well be more socially acceptable, so that it may be controlled to some extent, and 18-20 year olds don’t have to be so secretive about their drinking around adults.</p>