<p>These are our future leaders? Pretty scary! Obviously there are “career paths” some of us prefer not to encourage our kids to follow. I’m certain my kids’ school would NOT be allowed to have a “Hos/pimp” theme or anything similar. Pretty sad state of affairs if schools & parents go along with all of this & allow their kids to post photos of themselves in their lingerine all over the place. Vanessa Williams, anyone?</p>
<p>
I believe this prom was in Germany.</p>
<p>Chillin86, I’m not sure what you mean by the demographics of drinking prohibition/allowance. What exactly are you asking?</p>
<p>3-5 drink/highschooler at a prom sounds like a LOT to drink, at least to me. Guess that’s why I’m a teetotaler.</p>
<p>my mother is one of those parents who kinda lets drinking go…i mean, it’s not like she’s allowing huge rippers to go on in her basement, but she knows that we are going to find somewhere to drink, so it’s probably better to do it under a little supervision than in a parentless house. by allowing us to drink she’s able to make sure none of our friends or ourselves are driving home drunk or getting out of hand. </p>
<p>don’t get me wrong, i’m not saying that she encourages us to drink, but rather that she encourages us to drink safely…i.e. not down ten shots and/or get behind the wheel of a car drunk.</p>
<p>and just an fyi, its not just “rebellious” kids who drink. i have a 4.0 gpa, do community service, dont smoke or do drugs, and have probably fought w/ my parents twice in my entire life, and many other kids who i know drink are similar to that description.</p>
<p>I will allow my Ds to “drink” in my house under controlled circumstances…not a big party, but a family event…and not “drink” but have a glass of wine or champagne…</p>
<p>But to open the house to teenagers so they can party hearty is just reckless</p>
<p>So, it is up to the parents, and if a parent wants to allow a teen to have a drink, at a family celebration, in a controlled situation, that is very different from having a bunch of highschoolers over getting sloshed</p>
<p>And the age DOES make a difference, a 17 is different than a 14 yo or a 20 year old</p>
<p>Susan- My question is this, Mini would be most likely to know the answer. What are the factors (economic, geographic, family background, school background whatever) which contribute to condoning or condemning underage drinking? Obviously, whatever demographics that apply to my family and the families of my friends contribute somehow to the acceptance of underage drinking and I would be curious to see if there are any correlations.</p>
<p>That is an interesting question, to which I have no answer. My family, and the other families I know around here, definitely do not condone underage drinking. I do not know of any parents who allow their underage children to drink. (That doesn’t mean none exist around here, just that they are not within my circle of acquaintances.) We live in a working class area with some upper middle class and a very few upper class families within the school district. It tends to be moderate to conservative politically, although the larger area is quite liberal. I don’t know if any of that is relevant…</p>
<p>I’m certain my kids’ school would NOT be allowed to have a “Hos/pimp” theme or anything similar</p>
<p>They aren’t allowed or not allowed- I am sure you are familiar with seniors in high shcool- they just do it- they don’t ask for permission
in any case- this is what they might wear
The boys might wear flashy hats with maybe a fro comb stuck in their hair if it is that style
the girls might wear really high heels and really badly applied makeup
You should read the high school live journal- they are more interested in winning Billboard magazines top high school orchestra of the year award, and if they will have more NMS than Lakeside this year.
I am very proud of the kids and while I am sure not every single student has equally high standards all the time- it isn’t a school where students need to keep pushing the behavior bar to get a reaction from parents. They have one of the highest graduation rates in the city, and the state, not bad for a very diverse racially and economically public school</p>
<p>“My question is this, Mini would be most likely to know the answer. What are the factors (economic, geographic, family background, school background whatever) which contribute to condoning or condemning underage drinking?”</p>
<p>Great question, but you’re asking for the backgrounds related to attitude, and the only data I have is background related to behavior. The best stuff on the subject, on “risk and protective factors” comes from the Social Development Research Group (SDRG) at the University of Washington - you can look them up on the web. <a href=“http://depts.washington.edu/sdrg/[/url]”>http://depts.washington.edu/sdrg/</a></p>
<p>Be that as it may: binge drinking rates and heavy drinking rates among African-American youth, and among African-American college students are roughly half that of the white population, and alcoholism among African-American adults is roughly one half that of whites. African-American abstinence rates, both among youth and among adults, are a little less than double that for whites. Alcoholism rates for first-generation Hispanics is very low, significantly higher for second- and third-generation, though still 30% or so lower than for whites - among both adults and youth. Asian-Pacific Islanders rates are usually around 10-15% lower than for whites, with variations by subgroups. Native American rates are very high for both adults and youth. With the exception of Hispanics, alcohol use rates and alcoholism rates are a little bit higher for lower income folks; for Hispanics it is the opposite.</p>
<p>Among college students: binge drinking and heavy drinking rates are highest for males, athletes, those attending schools with heavy spectator sports, fraternities, rural, residential, co-ed, heavily white, and wealthier than average. Lower at schools that are: urban; less athletic and spectator participation; higher numbers of commuters; more racially/ethnically diverse, single gender (aren’t many), no fraternities, less wealthy. </p>
<p>Excellent work on youth drinking (especially collegiate) is being done by Aaron White at Duke University:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.duke.edu/~amwhite/index.html[/url]”>http://www.duke.edu/~amwhite/index.html</a></p>
<p>Alcoholism does tend to run in families, and the general consensus these days (though there are outlyer opinions) is that genetics is 50-60% determinant. However, as previously noted, those who drink “regularly” (I’m not talking about a sip with dinner, or a glass of wine occasionally offered by a parent), are four times higher over a lifetime for those who begin at age 14 or earlier than those who begin at 20+. This figure IS corrected for family history. Each year that regular drinking is delayed from age 14 results in a 14% reduction in lifetime alcoholism risk, and an 8% reduction in alcohol abuse risk. (In other words, delayed onset is the single best strategy for preventing adult lifetime alcoholism and related problems, independent of those which might occur to individuals as teenagers, and regardless of family history.)</p>
<p>There is no necessary relationship between drinking and school performance (there IS between alcoholism and school/work performance - and youth alcoholism rates are roughly twice that of adults.)</p>
<p>Let it be known that I am not a teetotaller. And that last time I visited my kid at college, I took her to a wine store and we bought two bottles of good wine - one white, one red - that she could use for a wine-and-cheese following a composers’ performance she was involved in. (But my d’s college also has one of the lowest binge drinking rates among residential non-religious colleges in the country.) My younger one won’t touch the stuff - even a sip offered by us - she has two close adult friends who are former alcoholics, both of whom started in high school, and both of whom I think put the fear of God into her.</p>
<p>“If you choose to rely totally on your statistics, that’s your prerogative.”</p>
<p>I help make public policy. The plural of anecdote is not evidence.</p>
<p>So, mini, all your statistical analyses notwithstanding, you are actually teaching your children “how to drink”. Not only are you providing alcohol to college-age children by buying “two bottles of good wine” (the quality apparently justifies it), but you are offering alcohol to your younger child (high-school age or younger since she still lives with you?), I am quoting: “even a sip offered by us”. The fact that she declines it does not obviate the fact that you are offering your minor children alcohol, and also supplying alcohol to children 21-and-under by buying wine for a school event. Surely you are aware, even if it’s only by reading this thread on CC, that the above activities are illegal in much of the U.S.</p>
<p>Since you “help make public policy”, you undoubtedly recognize the futility of relying on Soviet-era public-health statistics. Yet you extrapolate from the seemingly shocking rise of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome in Russia the conclusion that a more-permissive society equals social ills of all stripes. I would submit to you that social ills are actually better reported now, when during the Soviet era they were misreported when they were reported at all. During my time in the former East Bloc in 1991, I saw no appreciable difference in pre- and post-Communist-era social mores, with the exception of a sharp rise in both religious attendance and lawlessness (organized crime).</p>
<p>Your assertion that “genetics is 50-60% determinant” backs up my point about those who have a predisposition to alcoholism, and the likelihood of their becoming alcoholics. Also, that falls in line with my point about the French, since France is still a very insular and genetically homogeneous country (they don’t count immigrants, which is another topic). Even if your statistics have factual bases, let’s not forget that France is one of the most prosperous countries on the globe, relative to its size, has a low infant mortality rate and long projected lifespan. Not to mention low death rates due to heart disease and diabetes, despite consumption of high fat foods like foie gras – this is known as the “French Paradox”.</p>
<p>What does this have to do with our kids? Maybe not much, but many of them are going to be roaming around France, Russia, England, and all over the world, and I really hope they know what to do when alcohol and other drugs are freely available. Of course, those are also available on college campuses in the U.S.</p>
<p>note to others: yes, this prom is in Germany. It is a school-sponsored event at the Marriott. 3 alcoholic drinks come with the entry ticket (cut down from 5), but kids are always free to buy more at the bar. But what really bothers my kids is the smoking. Kids can smoke at school dances and events like prom. Smoking is rampant in Europe and much of the rest of the world. Can’t tell you how many restaurant meals have been ruined by smokers around us.</p>
<p>Sante,
A.M.</p>
<p>I haven’t followed this discussion as carefully as I should have, but I think a couple of things are being confused. One is whether it’s acceptable or a good idea for HS kids to try alcohol, with a parent’s approval. The other is whether it is o.k. to allow college age kids to drink moderately. Mini helped his older D purchase 2 bottles of wine for a specific purpose. I’m just guessing, but she’s probably 19 or 20. I see a big difference in accepting some alcohol use for a young adult of that age, although it’s still illegal, vs providing or condoning use in a HS age student. I think adults can model behavior without allowing the kids to drink – we do drink wine with dinner, and I’ve taken great care to point out the genetic influences of alcoholism. (great grandparents on both sides had problems) But to allow a HS age child to drink, even in one’s own home, seems foolish to me. Mini’s data is factual – the other stories are just stories. And, since I’m a first generation American, I do have first cousins in Ireland and England. The notion that allowing youngsters to drink at younger ages will prevent alcoholism is just false. I’ve heard many stories about problems with underage drinking in the British Isles. I also lived in Canada, where the newspaper would have stories about problems with teenagers drinking.</p>
<p>this seems to be an age-old battle. i am apalled (i have two sons aged 22 and 18) and for the last 8 or 9 years, i have been absolutely shocked at how many parents think it’s ok for their kids to drink as long as they are in someone’s home. or they use the theory that they confiscate their keys so no one will drive, so everyone is safe. (by the way, how many of you have two sets of keys to your car?..)</p>
<p>i think the issue is that parents are still afraid to say NO to their kids.</p>
<p>what I have always read has been info that using substances at critical periods while the brain is developing can permanently damage it.
I have heard students argue that if their parents allow them to drink “with conditions” at home, on special occasions whatever, that- they are really oK, with the kid drinking, and they take that reasoning to assume that in the situations that the parent doesn’t know about - it would also be OK to drink just as long as the kid can convince himself it ws a special occasion.</p>
<p>Drug use- alcohol use in high school, is not ok in my house. I understand that some with a culture where toasts or whatever is important, and that is their choice.
I am not comfortable with that & that is our choice.
Call me naive- but my older daughter graduated from both high school and college with a moderate use of alcohol ( almost nil in high school & the college she attended- substances weren’t assumed to be needed to relax)
I would also bet money that my 16 yr old has never had a drink or smoke- not that trying would put her up for a court martial, but she isn’t interested right now.</p>
<p>sjmom, I would recommend that you read the entire thread as it is an interesting discussion with many perspectives. Yes, mini purchased wine for his college aged daughter, something I’ve done myself, but he also has offered his younger daughter who I assume is in h/s, the opportunity to have a glass of wine at home, as well. </p>
<p>As for your comment that his data is factual, well, perhaps. It’s data which is compiled through anonymous surveys so who’s to say that it’s more factual than the ‘stories’ which you denigrate? Of course, anecdotal stories are just that, anecdotal. It doesn’t mean that they’re any less true than the information which is collected to form statistics. </p>
<p>My comments in this discussion and in the many others on CC relate to the differences between how alcohol is handled by the majority of college aged kids in the U.S. and in Canada. I’ve seen it firsthand for over 25 years, on both sides of the border, on several college campuses on which I’ve lived and worked. Anecdotal? I suppose so. However, seeing personally how kids behave, what their drinking experiences and habits are, what and how often they drink, and the differences when kids are allowed to drink legally at age 18 or 19, mean more to me as a parent and as a psychologist. There are problems with teenagers drinking everywhere but that doesn’t mean that every teenager or college student wouldn’t be better served by a reasonable system of learning to drink responsibly without waiting until the arbitrary age of 21. Even mini, with all his statistics and claims of making public policy, obviously wouldn’t appear to be a true believer, as he is not following the policies which he advocates at every opportunity.</p>
<p>“So, mini, all your statistical analyses notwithstanding, you are actually teaching your children “how to drink”. Not only are you providing alcohol to college-age children by buying “two bottles of good wine” (the quality apparently justifies it), but you are offering alcohol to your younger child (high-school age or younger since she still lives with you?)”</p>
<p>Have I ever said otherwise? I quite fully understand the contradictions, thank you. (I never would have noticed without you. ;)) Nor have I ever suggested anywhere (you can check ALL of my posts) that parents giving their kids a sip of alcohol leads to alcoholism, or any other result. </p>
<p>It’s very easy to stereotype my position. I offer the personal experience in the hopes that folks could see the nuances in it. Apparently I failed - for which I apologize.</p>
<p>“Your assertion that “genetics is 50-60% determinant” backs up my point about those who have a predisposition to alcoholism, and the likelihood of their becoming alcoholics.”</p>
<p>I noted as well, however, that the fourfold differences based on age of first “regular” use was CORRECTED for family history. I thought I wrote that in plain English, but if it didn’t come across, I am sorry. So let’s try it another way: an individual WITH A NON-ALCOHOLIC FAMILY HISTORY, who begins regular drinking at 14 years old or earlier stands a four times greater chance of becoming alcohol dependent (alcoholic) in their lifetime than an individual also from a non-alcoholic family history who begins regular drinking at 20+. Each year delay in onset of regular drinking results in a reduction of 14% in the chances that one will become alcohol dependent.</p>
<p>The impacts of adults introducing their kids to drinking (a sip or two) are unproven one way or another. We do know that countries where adults introduce their kids to “regular” drinking (i.e. France) have high rates of alcohol dependence among adults. And what we do know, without question, and from incontrovertible evidence because, in this case, we have both state-by-state before and after data, and state-v.-state comparative data, is that the higher legal drinking age has resulted in much lower morbidity and mortality among youth, and lower morbidity and mortality when the youth becomes adults.</p>
<p>Some other good material can be found at the Center for Alcohol and Substance Abuse at Columbia University. <a href=“http://www.casacolumbia.org/absolutenm/templates/article.asp?articleid=287&zoneid=32[/url]”>http://www.casacolumbia.org/absolutenm/templates/article.asp?articleid=287&zoneid=32</a>
They tend to be a little rabid for my taste, and rely mostly on secondary sources (I always go back to the primary ones), but they provide excellent summaries of available research, and do lots in the way of parent education.</p>
<p>Alwaysamom, if you are a psychologist then you must have taken a fair amount of statistics. What I remember is that the sample size determines the level of validity of the data. Anecdotes are not typically a random sample, and I believe that any published data would have received some professional peer review or scrutiny. So, yes, I do trust Mini’s data over a selection of anecdotes.</p>
<p>I am also surprised that the issue of substance abuse and adolescent depression and anxiety has not been discussed further. There is a clear correlation between those behaviors and I think if a teenager is seeking relief from life, then someone should be looking at emotional problems.</p>
<p>Does the European data regarding alcoholism and drinking at younger ages take into account southern European countries vs other parts of Europe? Does it note any differences from drinking wine from drinking beer or hard liquor? Just curious, if there are differences.</p>
<p>A note on populations and alcoholism: using national data in the cases of both the U.S. and France significantly underestimates alcohol dependence (and abuse) among white or native populations. As noted, in the U.S., African-Americans and, to a lesser extent, Hispanics, have substantially lower rates of alcohol abuse and dependence among both youth and adults. The same is even more true in France, with approximately 9.5 million immigrants from North Africa, with extremely low rates of alcohol dependence. Factor them out of the equation, and alcohol dependence rates in France are actually quite staggering.</p>
<p>“Does the European data regarding alcoholism and drinking at younger ages take into account southern European countries vs other parts of Europe? Does it note any differences from drinking wine from drinking beer or hard liquor?”</p>
<p>It’s hard to know what to make of it. The WHO data measures litres of alcohol consumed, as opposed to what kind of alcohol was consumed. Sweden, for example, is more of a beer- and hard liquor-drinking country, but with only about half the amount of total alcohol consumed per capita, and a little more than half the alcohol-related deaths as wine-drinking France. The situation is somewhat similar in Germany.</p>
<p>I think a family’s social class, ethnic background, and other cultural attitudes have much to do with how a child is introduced to, or forbidden from, alcohol. Clearly alcohol is a big problem among American youth, whether or not they’re in college. It’s not a new problem, either. And I don’t think there’s a one-size-fits-all solution.
In my family of origin (Northeastern, socially liberal, secular/Jewish, upper-middle-class), alcohol was never much of an issue. My parents and grandparents drank very moderately; maybe wine with dinner every now and then; and my grandparents were sure to have one drink every afternoon (they thought it was a health aid, and they were probably right). I grew up in a home with a fully stocked liquor cabinet that remained fully sticked because it was rarely touched. There was no aura of “forbidden fruit” around drinking, and I never thought about it one way or another. As far as I knew, there were no alcoholics in the family.
In college, I drank beer to excess freshman year - meaning I probably got drunk two nights a week. I was in a fraternity, and it was what was done on weekends. When I met my girlfriend(later wife), I pretty much stopped drinking with the boys, at least to any excessive degree. I just didn’t care about it very much.
I now have an 18-year-old son graduating from high school next week, who will be going to a small New England LAC in September. He’s very social, and a “helmet sport” athlete as well (and will be playing in college) I know that he drinks with his friends, but honestly, I don’t know how much. I suspect he’s not on the excessive end, but I really don’t know.
I let him drink, lightly, with meals, at home. I don’t want him to see alcohol as a forbidden substance. I want him to experience it as a normal part of life, that like anything else (food, sex, sloth, etc), can be abused but doesn’t need to be.
I also think that the 21-year-old drinking age is ridiculous. We might as well have a limit of 21 for sex, also; both have the potential for disaster if abused. And we know how many young people would follow either one of those strictures. In fact, I would have concerns about the psychological health and risk-taking avoidance of any college student who would abstain from alcohol (or sex) just because it was officially illegal. I would certainly never hire them to trade bonds for me or to operate on my brain. I’m serious; there is a normal amount of rule-flouting that is part of healthy psycho-social development, and alcohol use (except in the case of certain non-mainstream groups) falls in that category. Use is not the problem - abuse is.
I do not fault parents who try to shut down all alcohol use - many have alcoholics in the family, or have otherwise suffered from the effects of alcohol abuse or have witnessed it closehand. But, I do think, except in rare cases, their attempts at enforcing a ban will fail.</p>