In the college admissions forum, there is an interesting thread on what differentiates admission into HYPSM vs. the next 10-15 schools (i.e. the so called lower Ivys, NU, Duke, Rice etc.).
This leads to an interesting question: if a student is to attend a lower Ivy or Duke or Northwestern, what opportunities they might not have that they could have had at HYPSM?
@osuprof I don’t think there is a substantial difference in opportunities when comparing HYPSM vs places like Columbia, Penn, Chicago, Duke etc. The difference lies in the prestige and recognition of the school, as well as the level of talent of the student body. HYPSM is bound to be recognized way more by the lay public and also it tends to have a bigger concentration of super talented students. Also maybe the extra resources available due to their huge endowments might make a difference in the attention the students get, but not sure really. Also HYPSM tends to have more super star faculty than most (but not all) other top 10-15 schools.
Also it depends on what school you are comparing HYPSM to. Some of the other schools, especially the ones towards the end of the bottom of top 15, might not have as many strong departments and as many superstar faculty and cutting edge research going on. Also if you are looking to break into business jobs some top 15 schools are more targeted than others by top firms.
That said, I doubt most employers or grad schools would choose a HYPSM person over a person from other top 10-15 schools just because they went to HYPSM.
Here is one difference I have observed: At HYP, elite investment banks will recruit pure humanities majors, on the assumption that if they are bright and successful enough to gain admission to those schools, they are bright enough to succeed in banking despite not having any background in econ or finance . . . plus, the prestige-focused banks like the sheen of a degree from HYP.
That tends not to be the case at the sub-HYP level, where banks seem to expect more finance-specific training from students going through the on-campus recruiting process.
There might be analogous asymmetries in other areas (e.g., going to work as a Congressional aide), but my sense is that these asymmetries will mostly appertain to the very top tiers of the most competitive fields.
“Some of the other schools, especially the ones towards the end of the bottom of top 15, might not have as many strong departments and as many superstar faculty and cutting edge research going on.”
Lol, bottom of the top 15 is still top 15. For a reason.
It’s a huge generalization.
In STEM fields, opportunities generally depend on the amount of federal funding that a university gets, and federal funding is generally spread over many universities. There are too many outstanding ideas and projects in science and engineering for any one university to have a monopoly on all of them. Most research opportunities are sufficient for an undergraduate, who, even in the most cutting-edge laboratory, still has to learn how to pipette or to run a basic gel. Maybe for a graduate student, it makes sense to have fine distinctions among a few institutions, but for an undergraduate, introductory organic chemistry is still just introductory organic chemistry. Also, in particular fields, some universities get funding way out of proportion to a simplistic notion of college ranking or prestige. For example, computer science at Carnegie Mellon has resources and faculty talent on par with any other university, including Stanford and MIT.
@lookingforward not really a generalization, if you compare the non-HYPSM top 10 schools and the schools #11-15 or so you se that the former have more higher-ranked departments than the latter. Not that this makes such a huge difference for undergrad, but that is how it is.
The question is: how much of the differences in the experiences post graduation are due to the school, and how much of the differences are inherent in the student to begin with? From a reputation perspective, many people you will meet won’t know, or won’t care, whether you went to #1 or #15 on the list, and that will include many of your best managers and mentors. And from an opportunities and career perspective, how does “average” at Harvard compare to “slightly above average” at Cornell or “cum laude” at UCLA?
I think it really boils down to “fit”. If you’re happy, you’ll find the right opportunities, and do well and be happy. If you’re in the wrong school because of a few positions on the USNWR ranking, it’s not going to go well, and what’s the point really?
Ken
Yale has 8x the endowment of Brown. I have to believe that makes some difference in the college experience, without even getting into post-graduate outcomes. Yale has more money to spend on everything.
@kencc83 i dont think the distinction OP is trying to make refers to the USNews ranking position by position. i dont think most applicants take USNews that literally anyway. They are rather asking whether the elevated status of HYPSM in terms of desirability/prestige compared to the other top 15 schools is grounded in substantial differences in opportunities offered by HYPSM vs the other top schools.
@roethlisburger definitely true. There is definitely a feeling you are at a richer, more gilded environment without practical budget constraints. You get small everyday perks that you do not get in other top schools. That is especially true at Yale and Princeton due to their huge endowments and relative focus on undergrads and their smaller sizes. One of my best friends was at Yale while I was at Penn, and whenever I visited the difference between Yale and Penn in terms of how rich the place felt was definitely noticeable. Also the Stanford campus is a complete utopia that oozes big money.
“if you compare the non-HYPSM top 10 schools and the schools #11-15 or so you se that the former have more higher-ranked departments than the latter. Not that this makes such a huge difference for undergrad, but that is how it is.”
Based on what rankings? US News own undergrad engineering rankings in 12 majors only has one school 6-10, Cal Tech, one 11-15, Cornell, the rest are ranked below 20 in US News national rankings. Undergrad business is the same story, in the majors there, Wharton, Michigan, NYU, Berkeley are the top schools, so only school, Penn, is 6-10. A lot of the schools don’t have undergrad business, but still, you have 50% of the college population where the best schools are not 6-10. Add in computer science, where CMU, along with UM and UCB are higher ranked than any of the 6-10 schools. It’s only when you get into humanities and majors like Economics where schools like Chicago and Columbia have top ranked depts. And even there, our friend US News has Berkeley and Michigan in the global, undergrad top-10, ahead of YP.
@theloniusmonk USNews undergrad rankings are nothing but aimless surveys with no data whatsoever, no one is looking at those. if you wanna get an idea of department strength from a USNews ranking you look into their graduate rankings. Also looking at any other major subject ranking out there (Shanghai, THE, QS, USNews global, CWUR) tells the same story. Also i didn’t say that there are no schools that are ranked higher in some subjects than non-HYPSM top 10 schools, but rather that comparing the top 10 schools with the top #11-15 school you generally have more higher ranked departments in the former group. UMich and CMU are not top 15 undergrad schools.
“non-HYPSM top 10 schools”
What a convoluted expression. I had to look them up: Chicago, Columbia, Penn, Duke and Caltech. They must be the schools that you mean. CCPDC for those that like acronyms 
As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, HYP don’t have many top-rated departments, per USNWR. SM, however, do. So, it’s not just CCPDC that have a problem with national ranking and department ranking correlation. HYP do as well.
“…if you wanna get an idea of department strength from a USNews ranking you look into their graduate rankings. Also looking at any other major subject ranking out there (Shanghai, THE, QS, USNews global, CWUR) tells the same story. Also i didn’t say that there are no schools that are ranked higher in some subjects than non-HYPSM top 10 schools, but rather that comparing the top 10 schools with the top #11-15 school you generally have more higher ranked departments in the former group. UMich and CMU are not top 15 undergrad schools.”
Thanks for confirming that Michigan belongs in the top fifteen undergraduate schools in this country.
“Here is one difference I have observed: At HYP, elite investment banks will recruit pure humanities majors, on the assumption that if they are bright and successful enough to gain admission to those schools, they are bright enough to succeed in banking despite not having any background in econ or finance . . . plus, the prestige-focused banks like the sheen of a degree from HYP.”
At a minimum, Penn and Columbia humanities majors have the same opportunities. I am not sure about the others.
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“Here is one difference I have observed: At HYP, elite investment banks will recruit pure humanities majors, on the assumption that if they are bright and successful enough to gain admission to those schools, they are bright enough to succeed in banking despite not having any background in econ or finance . . . plus, the prestige-focused banks like the sheen of a degree from HYP.”[\Quote]
Agree. This also applies to top management consultant jobs. McKinsey will offer a Latin major a job from HYP. For your typical pre-law, pre-Med, pre PhD student, an UG degree from any top 20 should give adequate street cred.
Stacy Berg Dale and Alan Krueger looked into this years ago. Has anything changed much since then?
I know someone who went to a Midwestern state school, majored in Spanish and ended up in international investment at a bank headquartered in the Midwest. I think all businesses look in their backyard for candidates because the retention rates are higher when new hires have multiple ties to the region. If elite firms are on the east coast they will be inclined to hire the best graduates on the east coast. Startups on the west coast are going to recruit from their region as well.
Also looking at any other major subject ranking out there (Shanghai, THE, QS, USNews global, CWUR) tells the same story.
Well US News global confirms my undergrad rankings, their top five engineering universities in US are MIT, Berkeley, Stanford, Ga Tech, Michigan. I already mentioned the economics and business rankings, UCB ahead of Chicago and Columbia, Michigan ahead of Yale. Even in arts ad humanities subject, Berkeley and Michigan rank 6 and 7, higher than all but two ivies, Harvard and Yale.
Now UM and UCB are larger of course, but without a doubt have more higher ranked programs than any school except Stanford and MIT.
Michigan is also ranked #6 for best undergraduate teaching of national universities at USNWR. Not a top 15 school for undergrad? Nonsense.
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/undergraduate-teaching
At the very top schools, you can rub shoulders with the Xi Mingzes of the world.
Not likely.
Of the 30,000+ students/faculty at Harvard, less than 10 even knew her assumed name.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-did-chinas-first-daughter-find-in-america