Here is the [Canadian study](http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa1411131#t=abstract) that was mentioned upthread, in case it hasn’t yet been linked.
No training will stop an actual sexual predator. Arrest and prosecution are likely the only things that will stop a sexual predator. It could help others to train them how to recognize sexual predator methods and how to reduce the risk of becoming a victim or allowing someone else to become a victim.
However, if you mean unclear consent situations where someone may be committing rape even though s/he does not think at the time that s/he is committing rape (due to believing that the sex was consensual when it is not for the other party), then getting everyone to be absolutely clear about whether consent is given could help. I.e. anyone asking for sex should back off unless there is a clear yes from the askee, and anyone asked for sex should give a clear answer. And do not do it if either party is under the influence of alcohol or other drugs.
The stories on these threads make it seem like both the accuser and accused can have little confidence that a third party judgement of an unclear consent situation will find the correct answer.
"^to me there seems a significant difference in being physically restrained. "
But we are not talking about the “I said no!” scenario. We are not talking about the “I tried to get away / push him off, but he pinned me down, held my arms back, barred the door or threaten to hit me if I didn’t comply.” We are talking about the nuanced situations where verbal or physical no is NOT as clear-cut as the above.
Let’s pose a hypothetical. Casey and Ryo are engaged in fully consensual sex. Casey is not enjoying things. It’s not for lack of Ryo’s trying; Ryo just doesn’t know that Casey would prefer things faster, slower, a hand a bit higher, a bit lower, whatever. They finish and Casey reflects later on the situation. Is it Ryo’s fault that Casey wasn’t satisfied when Casey failed to give verbal or physical feedback to change things?
@Pizzagirl Bad sex is usually the fault of both parties.
Pizzagirl in #263 says that Casey should have known they would not like sex with Ryo, although this is the first time they’ve had sex. "
That’s not quite what I said. It’s not about liking sex. It’s about consenting to it. If you’re in a situation where consenting to sex is something you’ll regret five minutes later, but maybe, just maybe don’t consent in the first place.
In loving marriages, there are still situations where no means “ask me again in a few minutes,” or “ok, go ahead, I’m not fully in the mood but fine, this one’s for you.” Short of unanticipated physical discomfort, I don’t know married couples where the wife consents to sex and then five minutes later in the midst of things says no, stop. Either she says upfront “no dear, not tonight” and nothing starts, or she goes along because that happens in relationships sometimes - and it’s not rape and there is no regret.
PG: the scenario I am addressing is one individual changes their mind, for whatever reason, and says stop. The other individual continues until satisfied, overpowering the first to do so. I am assuming the individual who said stop would leave if it was possible, if there was no physical restraint. To me that is very clear cut. It doesn’t matter if one person changed their mind in the middle of the experience. We are allowed to change our minds.
Telling young people that they should know what they are consenting to and will enjoy, before they have that experience is really bad advice in my opinion. What if someone is unexpectedly rough? What if they smell terrible? Just be silent and bear it because you took off your clothes already? No.
adding: I like the idea of making this a non-gendered discussion, but the reality is that usually men are stronger than women, when we talk about heterosexual relationships. And usually men are the ones penetrating, and thus the ones not stopping.
I am fine with a young man reporting a young woman, or young man, who climbs into his bed uninvited and doesn’t leave when he tells them he isn’t interested. That’s wrong, too. If young men started talking about these sorts of objectionable behaviors when they happen to them, that would also change how we think about all this. imho.
FWIW: Anyone who is even moderately interested in this topic should 100% be watching American Crime this season.
“PG: the scenario I am addressing is one individual changes their mind, for whatever reason, and says stop. The other individual continues until satisfied, overpowering the first to do so. I am assuming the individual who said stop would leave if it was possible, if there was no physical restraint. To me that is very clear cut. It doesn’t matter if one person changed their mind in the middle of the experience. We are allowed to change our minds.”
We are talking past one another, because I’m not talking about a situation where one person clearly and unequivocally said no, and/or tried to get away but was physically overpowered, restrained, prevented from doing so.
Your whole assumption that “the individual who said stop would leave if possible” - some of these situations are ones where the women aren’t saying no or pushing away, but not liking things, and expecting the guy to be a mind reader. You can’t expect a guy to be a mind reader if you want his hand here instead of there, and you can’t expect a guy to read your mind if you don’t say “no” in the moment.
I’m sure it’s unwise to join this debate.
But as to the Ryo scenario, it seems to me that ambiguity may arise because too much information is communicated. I know that seems crazy, but
If I hear, “Wait – stop,” that seems pretty clear. I stop. If I hear, “Wait – stop – that hurts,” I might think, “I can fix this. I’ll slow down. I won’t press as hard. I’ll change my angle. If it stops hurting, it will be OK. I know this because I’ve been here before.”
I would especially think that way if I’d been in a sexual relationship for a while (eg, sophomore year girlfriend) and I was more accustomed to making accommodations on the spot than simply stopping. Because that’s how sexual relationships work.
Yeah, a really good guy would consider the needs of an inexperienced lover. Most of us are only sorta-good guys.
The Ryo scenario also does not indicate if Casey had previously indicated that he/she was experienced. I think I respond very differently to that complaint if it comes from someone who presents as inexperienced (it really really means “stop”) than from someone who presents as experienced (it really means “fix your leg”). Again, the perfect lover stops. The average guy might not. The average guy is not a rapist.
I can’t comment on the part of the scenario that involves restraint. Out of context, who knows what that means. Grasping your lovers wrists is pretty typical. I do that, and I’ve seen it on TV, which suggests I’m not unusual.
Bottom line is this. “Stop” always means what it says. “Stop it hurts” might mean different things to different kinds of lovers, based on their own experience, and based on the experience they believe their lovers have.
If Yale really wanted an unambiguous scenario, they’d take out the “hurts” part. I know that seems counterintuitive, but I hope I’ve explained my thinking behind that assertion. Cardinal Fang won’t think so, but I can live with that.
if I’m the tribunal, and Casey comes before me saying that they said,“Wait, stop, that hurts,” wanting Ryo to stop, and then Ryo comes before me explaining that he heard Casey say to stop but he thought it was ambiguous so he didn’t stop or even ask if was OK to continue like a normal person, I’ll think the admissions office has mistakenly admitted someone who is a liar, impenetrably stupid or lacking in sufficient conscience. And I’ll lose no time in remedying that error.
“JHS’s rules, once I agree to have sex with a guy, I am his party doll. He can do anything he wants”
That’s a deliberate misreading of JHS’ post, and you know it.
I am not the only one who has observed that in your posts, there is repeatedly a theme that men “do” sex to women. I’m sorry that’s how you feel about it.
And I am not the only one who has observed that you sometimes attack CF personally instead of attacking her arguments, which is very distracting from the arguments themselves.
In acquaintance rape,or marital rape, one individual assaults another. One “does” this to another. This is comparable to me to domestic violence situations. Someone holding me down and continuing the act, against my will, seems comparable to me to someone striking me.
I have written this exact same post before, maybe several times. This becomes pointless. I hope young people reading have better sources of information than this thread. Young people I know don’t seem to have difficulty understanding the nuances.
262 CF wrote: [quote] No doesn't mean no? If I tell you to stop, you don't have to stop? Casey told Ryo to stop, and Ryo not only did not stop, Ryo restrained Casey and continued for "several minutes", not ten seconds but several minutes, and you're telling me that's not a rape? Someone is allowed to force me to have intercourse after I have told them to stop, and you don't think that's rape?????
[/quote]
263 PG responds: [quote] I think if you're in s situation where you consented to sex and then decide five minutes into it that you don't want to have sex any more, you probably shouldn't have consented in the first place five minutes ago. Maybe this problem would be ameliorated if people only had sex within some kind of relationship, not hook-ups, and where "regret" is - I was really tired last night and should have said no from the get-go, not I changed my mind midway through and decided I didn't want to sleep with the guy after all. Regret isn't rape.
[/quote]
I absolutely disagree with the idea that deciding five minutes into it that you don’t want to have sex any more, means * you probably shouldn’t have consented in the first place five minutes ago.* That makes absolutely no sense to me. I can think of a million reasons someone might decide to stop. Some might be justified. Some might be ridiculous. It doesn’t matter. It isn’t for me to judge. You can’t be in a relationship without having a first time. That first time might preclude a relationship.
CF’s example wasn’t about what old married couples do. It wasn’t about someone freezing up and not speaking. It was about someone saying “stop” and the other person not listening and using restraint to continue. That is the scenario I am responding to. I am assuming your post 263 was responding to that scenario as well. No matter what it was in response to, I still disagree with it.
Ryo did stop…just not fast enough to suit Casey. The point is that in my opinion the college is not justified on any level to expel Ryo. There is no threat to any other student. There is no “discrimination” against Casey’s sex, there is only an obvious lack of communication between two students. Colleges cannot and should not be able to indiscriminately make these types of administrative decisions. And colleges and universities deserve the full force of the law to come down on their heads if they act indiscriminately. And absolutely we need to tell colleges enough is enough they have vastly and grossly overstepped their responsibilities. Absolutely we need to tell our sons that they are at risk, even if that risk is minuscule…it’s not minuscule if it happens to you. A (female) sibling, who sadly did not have any children, sent me the USA today article I posted about Georgia with a note saying and I quote: “OMG is this REALLY happening in colleges?” Sadly, it is. Activists need to understand that they have alienated a large generation of powerful older women who worked long and hard for equal rights and control of their bodies by pursuing a ridiculous agenda in colleges with a rather minor population (compared to the total of all women) of privileged women who are at lower risk for rape and assault to begin with. Imagine focusing that youthful energy on the police, prosecutors and legal system. What a waste and so sad for our sons.
Some of you may be interested in this essay:
http://jezebel.com/was-i-raped-1751678715
"The question I’ve held on to for 17 years is this: Was I raped?
At no point did he force me down. He eased me down onto my back and I didn’t try to get back up. He never made me feel like he was going to physically injure me. And even though I’d rebuffed him for hours and swatted away his attempts to kiss me, once he put the guitar down and leaned into me, at no point did I ever say, “No, don’t do this. Please stop.” Then and now, my gut and my instincts tell me that if I’d told him to stop, he would have. Immediately.
But, at the same time, he did know. He knew I didn’t want to. Is that enough to make it rape? In a court of law, no jury would have convicted him. I didn’t give him verbal consent, and I never gave him verbal non-consent either. I’ve heard there are some athletes and musicians who actually require consent forms between two parties before anything goes down. If that had been the law, I would not have signed. He would not have consent. And that would have been that. "
But here is why she feels “muddled” about what happened (FYI, she does not think she was raped, she thinks the guy was a jerk and also thinks she could have been more “assertive”):
"Here’s the thing. There were times with men, before and after Dave, that were very similar to that day in his apartment. The difference was: these were times when I knew I wanted to have sex with the guy—but I still played coy in the same way. I played the cat and mouse game, enticing the man to do exactly what Dave had done—beg.
In these instances—even though, again, I gave no verbal consent, I gave in. And it was different, because I wanted to give in. More importantly, it was my intention from the very beginning.
So inadvertently I taught those men that pressing for sex could sometimes end well for both parties. I was the queen of saying things like, sex on the first date? I’ve never done this before. Or things like, I don’t know, maybe we shouldn’t. I have contributed to a culture that produced guys like Dave as a result of being shaped by that culture. I’m sure that, before me, there were women who wanted to have sex with Dave and still swatted him away for an hour beforehand…
I wish I’d known then the things I’ve tried to teach my daughter. I wish I had known how much freedom was available to me to draw clear lines in the sand. I wish I had grown up with stronger nos and stronger yeses in my mouth more often. "
Comments below the article are, no surprise, divided on the author’s question.
if you have agency and choose not to use it, you still have agency.
I was molested at age 14 by a man who at the time was in his thirties. Of course what he did was inappropriate. However, I also did not say or indicate no, I was never in any physical harm and I also did not get up and walk away when I could have. I had agency which I chose not to use. Why I didn’t is a whole 'nother topic between me and my therapist, and it doesn’t excuse what was done. However, I do not typically refer to it as assault. Assault implies a physical restraint or fear of physical harm from resisting and that just simply isn’t accurate.
Re the Jezebel study. If my spouse were to initiate something, and I go along though I’m clearly not into it (maybe I’m still annoyed at him for an earlier disagreement, or I’m tired, or my body language clearly indicates “hurry up and get this over with”), is that rape? I don’t think so.
Here’s another quote from the same essay:
In other words, this guy had no reason to believe she consented. She said no repeatedly. She gave no cooperation: she didn’t take off her clothes or even make it easier for him to take them off, she didn’t move. She might as well have been unconscious.
Also note that in this case, the two people were together because they were practicing music for their band. It was not a “date” or a “hook-up.” These people had not had sex previously. This was not an ongoing relationship.
Whether or not we call this rape, and I can see why people might disagree, let’s return to the thread title. Do we tell our sons Dave’s behavior is acceptable? What do we tell our sons about consent in this case?
Behavior could be unacceptable but not be rape.