“Does she say that she said to stop, but he didn’t stop, or does she say she never wanted this in the first place and never consented?”
She says she consented and withdrew the consent.
“I am also wondering @Hanna if you have to rely on the veracity of your client’s version of events?”
No. I am usually able to see whatever my clients and their attorneys can see (or have copies of). At a minimum, I generally see the school’s written opinion, which often includes thorough restatements of both parties’ arguments. In a case where I don’t have written records of that kind, I ask the client to do their best to tell me the whole story as the accuser would tell it. I wouldn’t be able to advise my clients well if I didn’t know the worst version of events.
“I’d like to get a feeling for what offenses turn out to be expulsion-worthy in the real world.”
I believe, and I REALLY hope, that I’m seeing the grayest cases. The reason I hope that I’m seeing the grayest cases is that if they’re all like this, then we’re really in a mess. The withdrawing-consent-in-the-middle case is unique for me so far, but pretty much all of them have something troubling or ambiguous about the circumstances or the evidence. Several have compelling counter-evidence.
Also, for my students who get 2-, 3-, or 4-year suspensions…that’s a lot like an expulsion for a 19-year-old. It’s a lot of time for a kid to delay his/her education. If they believe that they were wrongly accused, they often can’t imagine going back to that school anyway. I don’t find that they’re any better off in transfer applications if they were suspended vs. expelled. If they were found responsible, it’s a gigantic hurdle in transferring, period.
@Hanna, did your client’s accuser say the sex was good and consensual, or did she just say it was consensual? Thee nothing implausible about wanting to stop sex that was agreed to but turned out not to be good, and there’s nothing unbelievable about someone freaking out if they asked a guy to stop and he didn’t.
Consent is not a waiver. You get to withdraw it. You get to freak out with incoherent fury if someone disregards your withdrawal of consent.
“There is nothing implausible about wanting to stop sex that was agreed to but turned out not to be good”
In the context of a marriage/relationship (and yes, I’m shifting the goalposts here, so I’m calling it out), sometimes partners consent to sex that they may not really be in the mood for, because they know their partner wants it, they figure maybe they’ll warm up as events progress, etc. Maybe they’re tired. Maybe they’re still annoyed over a previous disagreement earlier in the day. Or preoccupied with a problem at work. Whatever. But they are still freely consenting, and had full agency to say “no, not tonight, honey” and have it be respected.
Anyway. Having been in that situation, as every woman has been at one point, barring unexpected physical pain, I WOULD find it pretty implausible to be midway through the whole thing and then say stop, no, we are done here, it would feel particularly mean-spirited and spiteful. The time to have said “no, honey, I’m not in the mood tonight” was earlier on. Yes, my H would respect such a request midway through, but I’m sorry. That’s a weird dynamic in a marriage if it were to happen on any kind of frequent basis.
What do we want to teach young women? Right now lots of us have kids dealing with the two body career quandary, one of those situations for which there isn’t always a right answer. We can tell them a successful long-term relationship will probably require a whole lot of compromise. We probably won’t tell a young woman her career is less important and she should follow the guy. What happens in the bedroom can be a metaphor. Or not. Saying “stop” in the middle may be the right decision even if it is inconvenient/hurtful/painful to one’s partner. Some partners may be worth a little or lot of sacrifice, but not all will be worth it. I think teaching you can say “no” at any time reinforces that notion. Teaching there is a point of no return is a very bad message. imho. fwiw.
adding: and once again, if we make it gender neutral the message should remain the same.
JHS: I agree with most of what you wrote in post 88, although I’m not smart enough to figure out a way to respond without risking offending those reading along who have experienced rape/assault. I have no idea what it means or how to process the idea that rape is for many just sort of a part of the female experience and that is why I keep trying to conceptualize it all outside of gender, which may be a really foolish exercise.
I am always very interested to read your thoughts and hope you aren’t silent. I would like to ask a question to get you back on the thread, but can’t even figure that out. Maybe you could explain what you’d like to see in place of college tribunals? If anything? I do very much want to know where you were meaning to go with the provocative posts.
The supreme irony of your attacking yet another woman who has said she was assaulted: first you tell @Pizzagirl what she ought to think and feel, now you tell @zoosermom. Maybe you need to get it through your head that for them, as both women who have been assaulted, and as mothers of both boys and girls, this is not a HYPOTHETICAL exercise. Show some respect.
Secondly, @Hanna mentioned pages and pages ago that she wondered whether a situationally inappropriate response to a sexual encounter–such as freezing rather than simply saying “no” and getting up when no force was involved–might be the result of an earlier assault, especially since research shows that women assaulted in college were much more likely to have bee assaulted in HS or earlier. Hanna was immediately accused of making this up in order to clear her clients in court, even though of course she is not representing them in court.
I agree that in the context of a marriage or ongoing relationship, sometimes one partner agrees to sex they’re not really in the mood for, and it would be mean and spiteful to ask to stop in the middle without a reason such as unexpected pain.
Two things, though. One, even though it would be mean and spiteful, the other spouse or partner is still obligated to stop. And two, we’re not talking about marriage here. We’re talking about college students. A woman is not obligated to lie there not enjoying herself, reviewing the integrals of hyperbolic sine functions or outlining her paper on the Shang kingdom while he’s getting off. She doesn’t owe the guy anything, and if she’s not having fun, she is allowed to call a halt to the proceedings at any time. She might want to continue, if she is interested in pursuing this relationship, but she is not obligated to (and if she does want to pursue the relationship, I’d suggest that she call a halt anyway and figure out a way they can have sex they both enjoy).
Momofthreeboys says that sex is not something a guy “does” to a woman. But if she’s not enjoying it, it is something he is doing to her. And if she is obligated to continue even though she wants to stop, it’s definitely something he’s doing to her. That’s why I think she should stop and either negotiate something better or walk out.
Yale is in Connecticut. In Googling around, I discovered that Connecticut was the first state to declare, in an appellate court case in 1994, that “If a person initially consents to sexual intercourse, but then withdraws that consent and is compelled to continue, then it is sexual assault in the first degree.” Those quoted words are right in the [Connecticut jury instructions for sexual assault](https://www.jud.ct.gov/JI/criminal/part7/7.1.htm). Connecticut is one of the states where the crime of rape is named sexual assault, which means sexual assault in the first degree is the most serious crime of rape.
So the Yale Ryo/Casey scenario is carefully crafted to describe something that is unambiguously a crime at Yale.
"A woman is not obligated to lie there not enjoying herself, reviewing the integrals of hyperbolic sine functions or outlining her paper on the Shang kingdom while he’s getting off. She doesn’t owe the guy anything, and if she’s not having fun, she is allowed to call a halt to the proceedings at any time. "
No, but the time to have done that was 15 mins previous, to have said no, not tonight. I’m tired, worried about my midterm, or just plain don’t want to. I find this stopping in the middle a little odd. If your boyfriend asks if you want to go out for Chinese, and you say fine, whatever, do you get to the restaurant, order, start eating and then midway through decide you wanted Mexican after all so you stand up and leave the restaurant with your plate half-eaten? Yes, you have every “right” not to choke down the Chinese food but it’s still weird behavior. When you agree to something … You agree to something.
Then again I’m not really up on casual sex. I found it a good principle to only be intimate with people who I cared about and was in a relationship of some sort.
I have young female nieces who went to a Christian college. If they wanted to go on a date the male and female students had to go before a panel who would decide whether it was a “holy” and virtuous date. Then if it cleared the board they could go out with two chaperons - but not too late. So there’s another option.
“did your client’s accuser say the sex was good and consensual, or did she just say it was consensual?”
It is undisputed that she was an enthusiastic participant for a half hour or more. In the accuser’s version of events, she asked to stop because she was freaking out, not the other way around. Both parties agree that the accuser said she wanted to go to the bathroom and the accused stopped immediately at that point, and she ran to the bathroom. The only disagreement is whether she asked to stop before that. In contrast to Casey/Ryo, there was no accusation of “restraint.”
A significant number of my cases that resulted in expulsion or multi-year suspension do not involve intercourse. In one same-sex case, the person who was expelled was the digitally penetrated person (the penetrator claimed that s/he was too drunk to consent to sex with the comparatively sober penetratee).
“I’m telling the boys to bring witnesses.”
In addition to Drew Sterrett, see Doe vs. Reed College. The case involves a three-way with two women and one man. One of the women accused the man, but not the other woman, of rape. The second woman, who was not only a witness but a co-participant, said that everyone was sober enough to consent and “totally into it.” Despite her sworn testimony, he was found responsible for sexual assault.
As I said above, I believe that the students who come to me for transfer help, and those who sue the universities, are likely those punished on the shakiest grounds. But don’t think that having a witness necessarily prevents either accusations or punishments.
"What happens in the bedroom can be a metaphor. Or not. Saying “stop” in the middle may be the right decision even if it is inconvenient/hurtful/painful to one’s partner. Some partners may be worth a little or lot of sacrifice, but not all will be worth it. "
It’s good to sleep with people for whom the likelihood you’ll regret sleeping with them is low.
The answer is so simplistic (in my opinion)…policymakers need to require the colleges to educate and to stop them from adjudicating Title IX disputes related to interpersonal relationships and sexual assault. It sure would solve alot of problems. Women could focus their energies on a full court press on the judicial system and colleges could do what they (supposedly) do best. Confused young men and women would perhaps learn something they hadn’t previously learned in high school about themselves and about the opposite sex and the kangaroo courts can be disbanded.
I just took a picture of this sign on a dorm bulletin board in Texas, though it originated in Florida. Kids need to be aware that this is the standard they may have to meet, though I believe it classifies most adults as both rapists and rape victims. “Convince” is now a synonym for “coerce,” it would seem.
355–Which means that celibacy is looking pretty good if you want to stay out of trouble (time honored advice BTW)
Guess the guy who “doesn’t get any” can now just declare how smart he really is!
Obviously the “casual sex” pendulum has been swinging back in the opposite direction from the 60’s and 70’s. But as usual the participants haven’t changed all that much. I know that’s true because most everyone here on CC recognizes “that girl or guy” from their own history.
I would say to the kids these days, be careful what you wish for. Convincing and coercing, like Pizza says, are two different things and the real world awaits outside the hallowed college gates. If college kids are really that inept or naieve at managing their lives they are in for an even bigger shock when they enter the work force.
They are also going to have a big shock when guys on campus look elsewhere for female companionship, or look nowhere at all. The gender gap on campus is not in favor of most women, and in a climate where men feel targeted, those who are present may not find relationships on campus worth the trouble. My son is very attractive (not just me saying that), not a movie star, but a nice looking, tall, fit young man. In his acceptances, he has received a lot more money than his stats would indicate and I believe it’s because the gender ratios are very skewed at his colleges. I keep telling him to remember that he can meet girls outside of college, at work, at home. That it’s probably best to keep his romantic life off campus. I really hope he considers that. His senior project is about Title IX mission creep, so at least he will be informed.
