Mediation is currently prohibited under Title IX.
In one of these situations, involving the usual caveats: no force, no drugs, no incapacitation, no prior withdrawal of consent - what would be so wrong with the girl saying “you know, I didn’t appreciate what you did there because _____ and I don’t want to see you again.” and a decent guy being sincerely remorseful, expressing that, and learning from it.
I disagree. I have the distinct impression that this happened because the surveys were taken and coded by SJWs convinced that women were victims and had little agency, especially in sexual encounters. A degree of condescension goes along with that mind set: “you poor creature, you don’t know what your own mind is or what is good for you, but luckily I am here to save you from your state of oppression!”
I also think it’s crazy that touching someone’s breast in the middle of a make-out session should be an expulsion offense. I don’t even think that touching someone’s breast deliberately without permission in another situation-- say, grabbing the breast of a woman he doesn’t know at a party-- should be an expulsion offense, if it’s a first offense and that’s the extent of the offense. If I were making the decision, I’d come down hard but not that hard.
Consolation, there is definitely some of the “consciousness-raising” of the type that you describe. Part of it is historically motivated–there was an era when some women experienced sexism (not connected to assault) that they did not actively recognize as sexism at the time. I have observed that first-hand. Women who grew up in that era are in the administrative/counseling positions at universities still. Their viewpoints tie in with a larger cultural issue of feminism, post-feminism . . .
But I think that the grouping on the surveys is actually due in part to self-protective action by university administrators, to minimize the apparent problem on their campuses, by grouping much less objectionable action with much more objectionable (even criminal) action. It is impossible for the reader of the survey results to tell whether there is a serious problem on the campus or not.
The Canadian study definitely did not group. I think MIT did not group, either.
I would say it’s an invitation, but it’s not too late to change your mind.
I do think it’s only fair for the person who took off their clothes to be very clear how far they want to go if it’s not all the way or when that they want to stop if they change their minds. Particularly since in my experience, boys will not be thinking too clearly at that point.
And to get back to the original question that means teaching our boys to ask more questions. “Does this feel good?” “Okay if I touch you here?” “Can I take your bra off?” “How about your panties?” I think you can ask these questions in a way that is sexy, not forced and icky.
“Over and over on various threads the last few years, a few posters have suggested that taking off your clothes is an invitation and it’s too late to change one’s mind at that point.”
OMG. These hypos just go on and on and on and on and on. No one disagrees with any of the ground rules about consent. It can be given and revoked at any time. We all know that and agree with that.
These tedious thought exercise hypos are pointless because you can never prove any of these hypo distinctions.
Assume you have credible he said. And also credible she said. Then add in credible testimony that the girl voluntarily disrobed. No other evidence. Case closed.
Sure a girl is free to revoke consent at any time. But revoking consent is not the same as being able to PROVE you revoked consent. Getting naked undercuts your ability to prove you revoked consent. So does sexting. So does flirting. So does obtaining condoms. So does previously having had sex with the guy. If you are unsure of how obviously true this is, go ask Mattress Girl.
What matters is what can be proven. What can be proven is different from what happened. If it can be proven that you gave consent at some point, but then you can’t prove you later revoked consent, you are out of luck. Sorry, we can’t help you.
I strongly doubt that Mattress Girl withdrew consent in the middle of an encounter. But that’s another story. 8->
Perhaps (probably) I’m in the minority, but what actually happened is much more important to me than what we can prove happened.
And I’m firmly in camp Emma.
adding: I remember some of the first threads where there were pages of discussions about whether a girl going to a boy’s room and sitting on his bed was an invitation and if he were justified in acting on that invitation. The discussion has moved to whether removing one’s bra is an invitation. I like the direction the boundaries are shifting. Eventually I think we end up with Mathmom’s #644 scenario upthread where asking is the norm.
All in all I feel hopeful about things.
That is not what matters to me. It’s not how I live my life, and it’s not how I expect my family and friends to live their lives. People should make sure they have consent before they engage in sexual activity, not because of any worries about proof but because that is how people should treat other people, and how they want to be treated themselves. People should be clear to other people about whether they consent or whether they don’t, because that is how they want to be treated themselves.
People who skirt around the edges of integrity, sleazily trying to get away with whatever they can, attempting to excuse themselves by saying that I can’t PROVE they misbehaved, are not people I ever want in my life.
I’m not sure that is exactly what northwesty was suggesting. While I am certainly more interested in the morality than the legality of all this, I understand legal intricacies are very interesting to others. And I continue to appreciate all the legal research you have done for us.
The more I think about it, the more I think bystander education helps everyone understand appropriate behavior in a positive way. Though I’m still partial to the golden rule.
@northwesty , I think you are describing fairly accurately the attitude of prosecutors and police, who must operate with a “proof beyond a reasonable doubt” standard. But as others have explained, what’s at stake with the “Dear Colleague” “preponderance of the evidence” standard is that you can decide that someone credibly withdrew consent even after doing any and all of the things you list. That doesn’t mean administrators always reach the conclusion that a sexual assault happened, but it would be the rare case when they absolutely couldn’t do that. Emma “Mattress Girl” Sulkowicz is a great example: She didn’t succeed at her hearing, but a heck of a lot of people have believed her. And, honestly, given all of the crap she has put herself through, self-aggrandizing though it is, it’s hard to believe that she’s just a baldfaced liar.
Are you kidding? She succeeded in creating a booming career as a performance artist. Well played, Emma. Too bad you had to take someone else down to do it, but hell hath no fury…
There were accusations by others against the man Emma accused. Some might not be legitimate, of course, and it could be a coordinated plot of some kind. I was particularly interested in the young man who made an accusation. There is precious little to be found on-line about him, but he does seem to be a real person. I think most of the accusers didn’t want to be vilified in the media, which was pretty sensible looking at what happened to Emma.
We’ll I say she “tried” to create a career. Right now I doubt few beyond advocacy groups want anything to do with her…but we digress…
“I strongly doubt that Mattress Girl withdrew consent in the middle of an encounter. But that’s another story.”
All parties agreed that she was having consensual sex at first. SHE SAID she withdrew consent sometime later when the guy wanted a different kind of sex. HE SAID it was all consensual. Really no other solid direct evidence (as is usually the case).
So she couldn’t prove that she withdrew consent. So she got no redress from prosecutors (reasonable doubt standard). And she got no redress from Columbia (preponderance standard). To this day, no one really knows what went on between the two behind closed doors.
So the only thing that mattered, in the real world, was what could/could not be proven. Most of these cases fit the exact same pattern. If you can’t prove it, then you can’t do anything. Other than counsel the victim and try to prevent future incidents from happening.
Adjudication (in real court or at college tribunal) is pre-ordained to be a waste of time most of the time. Because, as Mattress Girl herself said, all proceedings (court or college) require the kind of proof victims rarely have. And you can’t change that no matter what you do or try.
@alh, I think I’ve read almost every word published on the topic of Mattress Girl. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. 
Sorry for derailing the thread. (Not that most people here have contributed anything to the original topic…)
We are going at this from different directions. QM touched on that earlier this morning. If the thread hasn’t moved on by tomorrow, I’ll maybe try to write something that explains my pov. You’ve had me thinking a whole lot about agency.
alh, I would be very interested in your point of view on this.
I posted quite a while ago what I would tell a [hypothetical] son about consent. The recent discussion has made me think that it would be important to expand the discussion of the origin of current college policies. They are not simply the product of The New Puritanism, nor attributable to Radical Feminists Gone Wild. (I realize that no one has suggested exactly that, but the comments about women administrators explaining to college women that the college women are victims, even though they do not feel victimized, take a small step in that direction.)
I would like for a son to understand that when a woman says “no,” that really is game over. There is the “Why didn’t she just leave?” school of thought. One reason the woman may not just leave is that The Patented Tortoise of Fury move is just something from the TV show Agent Carter. It might work for someone who is extensively trained in martial arts; but otherwise, it is not a thing.
In addition, I think that it is important in general for a son to understand the relative physical strength of men and women. I know that there are women Army Rangers now, and their story actually brought tears to my eyes. That is wonderful! Some women are very strong physically. But a lot are like me. The issue about relative strength is an important one for the most gentlemanly of young men, if they are not aware of it. Early in our marriage, my spouse kept suggesting that I lift or carry things that it was truly beyond my physical capacity to do. He figured it out after a while, but it might have been good if his parents had clued him in.
I would probably have read a son “The Once and Future King,” or else encouraged him to read it for himself. So I could allude to Merlin’s instruction of Arthur by transforming Arthur into various creatures–experiences from which Arthur gained a deeper understanding of the world. It is different to be a woman than to be a man. [Oh, duh.] As a woman, I have lived with a certain level of caution, constraint of my free movement (especially when unable to be escorted at night), and even an undercurrent of fear, for most of my adult years. I am as indignant as anyone about men being unjustly accused. I do not reduce my opposition to injustice based on my experience, and certainly do not think that one injustice justifies another. At the same time, I think it would be really helpful if men understood the landscape for young women at this time.
I have told my son repeatedly and will continue to do so until he goes away, that no in any sense (shaking the head, pushing away) is the absolutely end of the encounter or he IS committing assault.
I also tell him that on campus, he doesn’t have the rights the Constitution grants him and which he takes for granted, and that the standard of proof is so low that he has to always be thinking of how he can protect himself from false accusations or the fact that in a he-said/she-said situation, the tie often goes to the accuser.
I hope he is moral enough to reserve intimacy for relationships, and I hope he is never the kind of guy who would abuse a woman in any way. But I know he is the kind of guy who doesn’t always read complicated social cues correctly, and I also know that he doesn’t have a vast range of experience with young women his own age, so he will make mistakes. I hope he doesn’t come up against a woman like Emma Sulkowicz who would build a career and fame on his back.