We all pray to whatever it is we worship that our sons don’t come in contact with someone like Emma but better they be prepared to understand how gynocentric many campuses are these days.
Anyway, I’m not fragile and I’m quite strong and can hold my own , but frankly I never had to physically fight with a guy when I was young, just back off, say no more and leave but I also never took any of my undergarments off if I wasn’t interested so there’s that - and if some woman had to fight and struggle to extricate herself that’s assault.
momofthreeboys, I’m generally trying not to reply to you since we live on different planets in different solar systems, but “gynocentric” ??? Please look at gender disparity of tenured full professors and get back to us.
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QM was sweet to ask, but everyone else can skip over this not very elegant alh analysis which is completely off topic and has nothing to do with the current thread.
Agency:
Thought #1: I think it is complicated since it is sometimes difficult, perhaps impossible, to see all the ways a patriarchal society impacts and limits our understanding of reality. In Christian Culture we start with a given that Eve is responsible for all the evils of the world. Once you decide rape jokes aren’t funny, a lot of ancient comedy becomes pretty horrific. It becomes difficult for some of us to study western literature while acknowledging the existence of rape culture. Read through that lens, the stories are very different than what we used to think they were, which all relates in my mind to your quote yesterday:
QM post
and to:
Thought #2: Even if, as a woman, I am in a privileged enough position to have some agency (or at least believe myself to have agency) that doesn’t necessarily mean my sisters and daughters have agency. So if I have agency, I should use it to their benefit. But maybe agency will never truly exist for women (as a whole) until all women have it. I can’t tell how much individual agency is an illusion.
If I could easily find it, I’d foot note the discussion we had about “butt grabbing” last year. It may not be an issue for an individual woman. I sympathize she doesn’t want someone to label her an assault victim if she doesn’t feel assaulted. However, I think if the strong women don’t stand with the weaker women, we don’t get any change. And the weaker women have to live in a world of butt-grabbers. And that diminishes all our lives in many ways. I think it even diminishes the lives of the butt-grabbers.
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The definition of rape has changed in my lifetime. Acquaintance rape and marital rape are very new concepts. Those acts existed before we named them rape and they were bad acts. We just didn’t have much vocabulary to discuss it. Now we are talking about defining it as rape when a partner won’t stop in the middle of what began as a consensual act. Eventually I do think we do get to what JHS posted in #88, and I don’t think any of us here want to move the lines that far.
The way I try to get out of patriarchal thinking is changing all the scenarios to gender neutral, as much as possible. I’ll spare you all the steps that take me to seeing rapists as bullies. Once I get there, I’m at the point I can object to the Christakis letter and rapists for the same reason and think safe spaces are a reasonable responsibility of the university and don’t negate anyone’s agency, except perhaps that of the bully, with which I’m okay.
I am still working on my bully definition. Some of you think Emma a bully. I do not.
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I don’t want anyone false accused, and I’m sure Hanna does valuable work, but Dstark’s post on this thread that once again a “rape” thread ends up talking about how the boys are disadvantaged is, I think, just one more example of how difficult it is to move beyond the male point of view when we think about rape, even though, as you point out below, women live with that possibility impacting their lives on a very deep level. When we have to spend physical and mental energy planning how to protect ourselves from rape, we lose the time and energy we could have spent on something else. (the butt grabbers are a much lesser obstacle, but the same kind of obstacle to making the most of one’s talents and abilities) I spent part of the summer visiting far flung friends, and several women my age and older, currently writing memoirs. Those memoirs all contain rape stories. I started to wonder how much a part of the female experience that story truly is. These memoirs seem really important to me.
QM:
I really believe some of our kids, when they think beyond gender and orientation, are able to put themselves in the shoes of another in an amazing way.
“it’s hard to believe that she’s just a baldfaced liar.”
“Liar” is not an accurate or useful model in most of these situations. There is a world of possibilities in between “She’s lying” and “It happened the way she says it did.” We’ve talked a lot about the scenario where someone might have a flashback to an earlier assault during a consensual encounter. More commonly, I think I am seeing the elasticity of human memory influenced by heartbreak, anger, self-protection, after-the-fact suggestion, etc. as well as youth and alcohol. EVERYONE’S memory is influenced by outside experiences and internal wishes and fears.
The population contains some psychopaths who lie constantly and have no remorse about hurting others. They can be of either gender and could show up on either side of an accusation. I have seen one case in particular where this is a compelling explanation of the accuser’s actions. But in the vast majority of my cases, I think both sides are reporting what they remember, even though the stories conflict.
I’m sure many of you have had this experience: I had a terrible emotional fight with a family member a couple of years ago. Two people saw me apologize to her repeatedly at the time, hug her, etc. When we talked about it months later, she insisted that I never apologized or hugged her. The witnesses remember it the way I do. I don’t think my family member is lying. Either she was too upset to even encode the apologies as memories at the time, or she erased them while dwelling on my sins afterward.
Gynocentric, yes I’ve pretty much believed that prevailed in education since the mid-nineties when my boys started heading off to kindergarten. The revelation that sprung in my brain was surprising to me, but less so when “The War Against Boys” was published a couple years later after it dawned on me what was happening. It was nice, at that time, to see that other enlightened women saw the same things. It is especially interesting to see so-called feminists just go ballistic and attack any women who can see both sides of the coin, I believe Hoff-Sommers coined it equity feminism to differentiate from gender feminism. Those feelings have now extended, for me, into my boys journey through college where it’s OK for women to stand on campus corners and scream and hurl invectives at guys but woe be the males that would even do such a thing (they mostly don’t and simply ignore) and from that to the biases of the tribunals…so yeah…I have pretty strong convictions.
I don’t see the tribunals as part of a gynocentric pattern in higher education. I see them as an amateurish response to a real problem that no one has been able to solve, and that may be unsolvable.
Let me try and flip the script a little bit. What are you all telling your daughters either in college or headed off to college about consent/relations with boys? Personally, I find it kind of hard to thread the needle between “you are the captain of your own ship” as it were and urging caution in the actions she takes. Maybe I am old, but I do think it was some what easier to navigate these waters when there were, or at least appeared to be, a higher threshold for acceptable behavior than what appears to go on now.
I always told my daughters to keep in control of their faculties at all times, to know who they are with, to always be on the buddy system with a girl when out, and to never put themselves into situations that have no good outcome possible. In a perfect world they would never be threatened, but in this one, they are smaller than most men and have to prepare accordingly because that is a biological fact, unlike things that are easily spun or pretended to be other than they are.
I would agree with that Ohiodad51…I am slightly jealous of the casual way (high school) boys and girls act with each other, in my time you just weren’t that aggressive…on the other hand I think the kids are not emotionally ready for some of the situations they get themselves into. 1950s moms, many who weren’t all virginal weren’t that far from the truth when they said the chase is half the fun…and that goes for both sexes. I must have said “be careful” every single day to 3 boys over the 6 years I parented during the formative years.
When you tell your daughters only a BIG HUGE LOUD NOOOO means no, don’t you worry that they’ll believe you, and think that if they say a teeny weeny tiny no they are actually saying yes? That is, while I agree that telling your daughter to be firm and direct is a fine idea and should be done, you should also tell her that you are just giving her tactics, and if she says no quietly, or her partner says no quietly, that still means NO.
That is, even a little tiny no means NO, but a BIG HUGE LOUD NOOOO might work better.
Alh: I agree with much of what you wrote. (although I firmly believe Emma was/is a bully with the help of Columbia) I think we may approach solutions from a different perspective, both to reducing sexual assault and to improving woman’s earning and political powers.
To me one of the best things we can do for young woman is to teach them how to find their voices, how to take charge in all aspects of their lives, to raise their voices in the classroom and later to negotiate for their worth in the office and to express what they want, and don’t want, in the bedroom. If woman need more agency, they have to learn how to get it. Isn’t teaching young women how to recognize situations in which they may be close to getting in trouble and how to get themselves out of it, empowering them not controlling? Is that not OK because we are telling woman what to do and not just telling the boys to stop? Will just telling boys to stop or throwing some out of school really change the campus climate or the incidence of sexual assault?
Of course we also have to teach men to listen to us, to pay us equally for equal work, to value our contributions, and to stop if we say no. We have to teach both men and women not to be bystanders. We have to punish the truly guilty and support the victims. But clearly the patriarchy is not going away any time soon so women have to do what they can to thrive and to protect themselves.
I have also been thinking about media and how that may impact what both men and women (boys and girls) think about the way “sex” happens. In movies and on TV there is typically no discussion, just kissing followed by clothes coming off and things happening. Nobody asks “is this OK”, but the woman appears to be as “into it” as the guy does and signals her agreement by taking off her clothes. Does this portrayal of “intimacy” impact impressionable teens and young adults? Not that movies or TV shows are going to change, but it is certainly a long way from only yes means yes.
I hope this comes off as intended (but it is kind of late here in the east).
I will teach my future sons that “No means No!” and to respect women. In fact, they need to respect everyone and treat people the way they would want to be treated. Don’t get so drunk that you loose control. Actions have consequences. Be careful what you post on social media. Don’t be afraid to seek help when needed. Finally: You are an adult, act like one!
I will teach my future daughters (excuse me if any of this seems like double standards): Don’t make up stories about being raped or assaulted. If you are raped, don’t be afraid to seek help and your father and I will always be there for you. Watch your drink at parties. Don’t get so drunk that you loose control. Meet strangers or first time dates in a public place. “No means No!” Treat everyone with respect. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Actions have consequences. Be careful what you post on social media. Don’t be afraid to seek help when needed. You are an adult, act like one!
A lot of this is advice I’d give to both sons AND daughters…
Not sure if this has been mentioned: You all might be interested in watching/DVRing tonight’s (2/24) Nightline. It is about Consent on Campus. They will focus on Penn State.
"When you tell your daughters only a BIG HUGE LOUD NOOOO means no, don’t you worry that they’ll believe you, and think that if they say a teeny weeny tiny no they are actually saying yes? "
No. Such a distorted thought process never crossed my mind. My D is a young lady who has no fear of saying what she thinks in any situation, so I don’t see why that would be any different if she were making out with a guy.
FWIW, I appreciate many of the responses to the question I posed. Maybe it is because I am a guy and a father of both a boy and a girl, but I do struggle with the idea that the male is presumed to be the only responsible party in much of what we read about. And yes, I understand that the language of these policies is gender neutral, and that women can and are accused of sexual assault. But the policies in place are obviously intended to protect and benefit young women. And yes, I am aware there are situations of actual or threatened physical coercion, or the use of things like date rape drugs. But no one rational is talking about any of that.
I just struggle with the idea of suggesting to my daughter that she is not responsible for her own actions. Maybe I am a neanderthal, but you want to go out and get ripped, take your shirt off and dance on the bar at some frat house? Expect to get groped. You want to grind all night with some random guy on a dance floor? Expect him to assume the night will end with some type of sexual contact. If you are not sure you want to have sex with someone, don’t.
Whatever decisions she makes, I want her to wake up in the morning and own the consequences of her own conduct. If, God forbid, she is assaulted, then I expect her to get the help she needs, report to the police and cooperate in any investigation. But if she wakes up and says “man I should never have slept with that guy”, I want her to recognize her mistake, and use the experience to inform her future behavior. Not decide that the guy shouldn’t have slept with her because she was drinking. Does that make sense?
My parents and brothers taught me that if he did not take no for an answer a knee to the groin followed by a punch to the throat would do the trick. I don’t have girls, but this was good useful advice.
I’m sorry, not to me. I see a huge difference in telling young people to be cautious because bad things can happen, and advising them it is their fault if they aren’t cautious enough and someone else harms them. One problem is that sometimes it isn’t clear what “cautious enough” means. It seems to me, that sentiment, taken to it’s logical conclusion,says it is up to women to protect themselves from rape and that rape ends up being a woman’s fault. I don’t think a woman is ever “responsible”" for her rape, even if she might have avoided it by being more cautious.
One of my favorite posts on these threads was from poetgrl before she abandoned us. She said at her husband’s fraternity if a girl was passed out naked on the floor, the guys would have checked to see she was okay and then covered her up. If I remember correctly, her husband was a fraternity advisor trying to get that sort of message across to the young men today.
The fact we want to teach the boys that sort of behavior, doesn’t mean we tell the girls it is okay to get so drunk they don’t know what they are doing.