What exactly makes better colleges...better?

College Search & Lists
1

I am in a position where I can choose between a top 20 private university and my in-state flagship. My mom thinks that this is a no-brainer - go to the more prestigious school. However, my instate school has frequently reached out to me and really wants me to attend (not to mention a hefty scholarship). So my question is…what are the palpable differences between a top private university and a lower-ranked but still decent large state school? Are the classes significantly harder at the higher ranked school? How would my experience be different?

I am leaning towards the higher ranked school, but I can’t bring myself to decline the other offer of admission, for whatever reason.

Although I am intending on engineering, which from what I’ve heard does not have too many differences between abet-accredited programs, I am still interested in this question more generally, not only for me but to help my sister down the line when she will decide between schools. Thanks.

2

In my opinion, I think the difference between a good state school and an elite private school boils down to a few things, most of them intangible and variable depending on what the student makes of it:

  1. Social environment—Being in an environment where most of the people around you are both talented and committed to excellence can be challenging and exhilarating or overwhelming and intimidating. You can find those people at your in-state school, too,but you may have to hunt around a little bit.

  2. Access to facilities and opportunities for engagement—That may not be as a big an issue when comparing a large state flagship to a smaller elite institution, but it may be if you talking about two schools of comparable size. The problem at some elite schools is that access to those opportunities (e.g., clubs, honors classes/seminars, leadership positions, research jobs) can be competitive, and at those schools you’ll be competing with some very capable and ambitious peers for that access.

  3. Connections and networking—There’s no question that a prestigious school will attract recruiters and may get your resume pulled from the pack. And your classmates will likely provide a network that you’ll be able to take advantage of well college ends. But you have to make sure to put yourself out there and make friends first; the connections will come later.

  4. Definition of self—Some people feel better when they have the social-recognition that going to a prestigious school evokes in others.

You’ll notice that “better instruction” or “more rigor” is not on my list. Honestly, I think that’s more dependent on the department and the individual student-teacher interaction than on the school itself. Instead, I’m one of the people who believes in “fit” rather than “prestige” as the key factor when assessing the relative merits of good/better/best type of schools. I also think that how a student “does” college can make all the difference in the world—if the student isn’t prepared to take advantage of the opportunities offered by the institution, it’s silly to pay extra for them.

Of course, as always, YMMV.

3

Palpable differences:

  • the department your major is in, and the people including professors and staff in that department, will be very important
  • I work at a state school, and they keep horrible folks on board for many many years - in a state school, you have little chance to fire anyone because it is 100% union
  • your colleagues at each school - do you want to be one of the top students, or do you want to be in the pack? do you want to deal with classmates who don’t go to class, and don’t want to learn?

The last point is a generalization but it is true at the state school I work at. Many students go there because of convenience and cost. It’s no wonder they offered you a great FA package.

The way I will put it to my kids is that a state school is fine, but I think they would be happier at the top 20 private school.

A final note - look at how many graduates go on to full-time employment or graduate school after graduation. Placement rate of graduates is an important factor.

4

That’s a GREAT question and the answer is a resounding…it depends. It requires to dig deep into vetting schools, visit and talk with students and professors. Some schools with great names offer a terrible undergraduate experience with very large classes, lots of TA instruction and professors who are largely disinterested in teaching. Some state schools offer lots of opportunities and support for motivated, talented students. It’s not, I repeat…NOT an easy and clear cut decision based on name alone. Good on you for asking the question and for digging deeper.

Your prestigous acceptance may be better, but should you decide to go the cheaper route, be reassured that students who are qualified to attend better schools are just as successful of they don’t. There are many studies that confirm this.

This is not to say the lesser school is better. It may not be. In fact, it may be far inferior. It’s not until you do your deep homework beyond name that you’ll know.

Good luck.

5

To your point @eyemgh, that may be true, IF you graduate.

My employer only graduates 25% in four year, and isn’t at 50% in six years yet.

A top 20 school will retain and graduate many more. My son’s school has over 95% retention freshman year, my state school has under 80%.

The anecdotes about graduates of state schools doing just as well only reflects graduate, not everyone who attended. An example is that when my son tanked at a highly ranked private college and went on academic probation, they busted their butts to get him back in line and I am pleased to say he above a 3.0 GPA now. The state school that employs me is perfectly happy for kids to fail class 3, 4, 5 times with no help at all to guide the student to improve - they just take the money. And admit more and more students, and call that success.

And that is a huge difference, having a kid going into junior year with a 3.0 GPA at a top private school vs. having him drop out of a state school.

6

I agree that it depends.

But I have doubts about the networking angle and importance. When we were looking both Michigan Tech and Lake Superior State reported the same 6 month employment rate (100%) and similar starting salaries for engineering and CS grads. Again, as I recall, these were slightly better than one of the better known private engineering U’s along Lake Erie.

If you rely on connections from classmates for engineering jobs, rather than the reputation you forge among capable engineers, you both may find time to discuss the flaws in that plan while waiting for the fries to be cooked.

7

However, the “top 20” school is much more selective at the admissions gate, so that it has much stronger students to begin with. Those same students likely will have a very high graduation rate even if they all went to a much less selective school.

I.e. (assuming no financial difficulties) the student with a 4.0 unweighted HS GPA and 1500 SAT and 34 ACT is highly likely to graduate in four academic years, whether s/he is surrounded by similar students (at a “top 20” school) or is in company with other students with 2.5 unweighted HS GPA and 1000 SAT and 19 ACT who are not that likely to graduate at all (at a much less selective school).

8

@rhandco, I never claimed all “lesser” schools were just as good. I claimed that for high stats students they are. They are in the 25% who graduate in 4 years, not in the 50% who don’t graduate at all. This has been examined over and over in well controlled studies and shown to be true. “Lesser” schools accept lesser students, skewing their stats.

9

I’ve seen it all where I teach, the second set of stats is about correct, but there are a lot of low-income merit scholarship students who suffer as well. The fact is, if you are great, and you remain great, of course you will be fine. As long as you don’t screw up.

For people who are really talented and smart, they almost all were in that cohort in HS, so if they go to a top school and are with other smart kids, that is what they are used to. The analogy used to be, if you play tennis against Jimmy Connors, you’ll play better than if you play against a random newbie.

Think about what a student wants from college - the experience is much different if you want to get in and get out, versus you want to enjoy the ride.

10

I don’t have time to find the cite, but a stunningly high percentage of SV startups have founders from just one of three schools: Harvard, Stanford, and MIT. Top schools can open doors in IB/VC/PE/management consulting. Lots of people end up in jobs they didn’t think they would want at 17 or didn’t even know existed at 17.

11

Perhaps the most famous academic paper in this area, is a study by Princeton Economists Dale and Kreuger, who compared the salaries of grads who got into elite schools to the salaries of those who got into elite schools but chose to go to a less selective school: and they showed that in the long run there was no significant difference for most people except for those who come from less-educated families…

http://www.nber.org/papers/w17159

12

Potential peers and networking at the top 20 private will be much different and stronger. These are the people likely to be life long friends and connections; at many privates their alumni networks are serious stuff. Many come from successful families and all their connections can trickle down. Not that it never happens, but I don’t know how many state school grads that put hiring someone from their state school as a priority like some schools do. Even somewhere like UCLA, other grads aren’t looking out for each other once they leave. Academically, I would rather be surrounded with more higher caliber students as possible to raise my game as @rhandco mentioned.

13

@reuynshard

You have to be baiting me. The study found those who applied to elite schools did just as well as those who went to elite schools. That’s a stunning conclusion, but it leaves a lot of unanswered questions. Why should the student who applied to Harvard, but was rejected, be more successful the student who never applied, assuming both students had similar stats?

14

@roethlisburger Perhaps it’s because those who applied to Harvard tend to come from affluent families/ families which emphasize education or high-paying jobs, etc. or perhaps they are just more confident in their abilities on average?

15

My impression from the OP was that the state school in question was a good (flagship) state school. It would not be in the same league as @rhandco 's lower performing state school. Apples and Oranges.

OP, do you have to take loans for the top 20 private? Is the state school a top 20 state school?

16

The greatest benefit of going to a top school is that you associate yourself with people of similar high calibre. The second greatest benefit is the name recognition of the top school.

17

@suzyQ7 No, my family can afford the private school. My parents are in favor of the private school and are willing to pay. I’m getting 18k a year from my state school and nothing from the private school.

The state school in question is the University of Arizona. It has some good programs but I wouldn’t call it top 20.

18

@hzhao2004 Problem is, where I want to live and work (California), my school is not that well known, despite being in the top 20.

19

@Ariz0na What are you planning to study? Do you know what you do when you graduate? That can make a difference, too, especially in assessing the importance of a school’s “status” among potential employers.

Also, based on your other posts, it appears that the private school you’re interested in is WUSTL, which is one of the new “non-coastal elites” (along with schools like NU, UChgo, Vandy, for instance). You can expect its reputation to continue to grow. The only thing that could be confusing for people on the west coast is the tendency to mix it up with University of Washington.

20

I love this question OP.

I do think the other students at a prestigious school are the main tangible factor that makes a school “better”. I think it’s entirely likely that you can get fantastic teaching quality at MANY colleges these days, in part because there are many excellent profs who are trying to climb up the ladder too. By no means are all the best profs at HYPSM. Last year, tiny Kenyon College in Ohio had eight profs in the top 300, while Harvard only had four.

As far as name recognition, well, you are right. You will not find many in CA who are aware of WUSTL, but as these things go, the people who need to know, know. But you want to stay in CA. I personally do not think a person’s future outcomes are determined by where they attend school, but a lot depends on the person. Are you a “grow where you are planted” type, or a “will grow if planted in the right place” type? Personally, if I planned on staying in CA (I am from SoCal and am there often) I am not so sure the extra money for the prestige would result in a good ROI. There’s a good story about two students from Indiana or similar. Super Star kid got into Yale, other kid went to State U. Fast forward to several years later, State U kid walks into work and Yale kid is there. They are earning the same money. Prestige doesn’t necessarily mean your life is going to be dramatically different in the future.

I am guessing that you are probably in the Honors college at UA, where you will absolutely find talented and intelligent people. You will probably meet brilliant students who could have got into the best colleges in the country, but they are also at UA honors college because they chose it, or can afford it, or want a big U environment and all that comes with it, and so on. A good friend has a D at Northeastern, honors program. This girl is gifted and got into several tippy top schools. They offered her a ton of money to go to NE and she took it. She LOVES her school, is deliriously happy. She certainly doesn’t regret her choice.

At UA there will also be a lot of bright but maybe not stellar kids and some of them may be your future friends. Plus, a lot of smart kids don’t want to attend a school filled with braniacs, high-achievers, and the like. (My son will be one of them. “Smart people are so annoying.”) I can’t imagine UA doesn’t have good libraries, or lacks the resources necessary for students to succeed. You will probably be a top student at UA, and there is something to be said for being a big fish in a big pond. You will get more opportunities coming your way if you stand out to your profs.

I don’t have an answer to your original question. Really a lot of it is about public perception and hype. Stanford’s dwindling acceptance rate makes the headlines, and the next year, even more people apply. People want what they can’t have, and it’s often totally irrational. Here is something to consider though. U of Arizona has 43,000 students. It’s huge, yet, the school has an 81% freshman retention rate, so the majority of kids are pretty happy there. WUSTL has a higher retention rate of course, but my point is that your experience will be what you make of it. Think about where you would see yourself being happy for four years, and don’t consider the name. That’s probably the school you should go to.