What Extra Curricular Activities (ECs) Top Schools REALLY want

TheGFG · May 19, 2006, 7:40am

“How long do you think a person can sustain 18 hour days and truly stay healthy, in all the ways that means.”

Thanks, anitaw. When kids with profiles such as these win prestigious award, it encourages the academic equivalent of the overuse injuries currently an epidemic in youth sports. I don’t know if the rate of burn out is the same as for, let’s say, young pitchers, but there have got to be consequences for mental and physical health. For example, would it be hard to imagine the kid who was working 20 hours a day proving the theorem maybe falling asleep at the wheel of his car with disastrous consequences for himself and perhaps others? What about a student taking 6 AP classes who’s struggling with the workload switching from coffee to amphetamines to stay awake longer? Do these students have time for meaningful relationships with their families and friends? It’s possible that some are just that talented and brilliant. But I worry about the ones who aren’t but try to live up to that near impossible standard.

Similarly, the desire to be good at a lot of things will, for most mere mortals, backfire. A jack of all trades is master of none. Most kids will not look like the ones highlighted here. Instead, they will end up with a mediocre, scattered-looking resume. Then they’ll be shocked and crushed when they are rejected from the elite schools. How could this happen when they worked so very hard and crammed in so much?

marite · May 19, 2006, 7:57am

Do these students have time for meaningful relationships with their families and friends? It’s possible that some are just that talented and brilliant. But I worry about the ones who aren’t but try to live up to that near impossible standard.

That really is the point. It’s not the naturally brilliant kids whom we need to worry about unless they are perfectionist and don’t know how to stop–but perfectionism is not limited to academics: one can apply perfectionism to housekeeping, endlessly vaccuming and dusting. The students one needs to be concerned about are those who try to keep up with the stars. If a student needs caffeine or amphetamines to cope with 6APs, there’s something drastically wrong with that student’s program.

marite · May 19, 2006, 8:00am

Very weird. I don’t know how the emoticon showed up on my post and it does not appear when I try to edit. Maybe the editor doesn’t like my use of “one”?

Collegemom · May 19, 2006, 9:17am

Marite: I was reading your post and was curious about the emoticon and so went to look. The reason it came out as an emoticon was beecause after the word, “academics”, you had used a colon and then there was no space after the colon and the next letter was an “o”. The colon + the “o” are the way you create this emoticon: :o

What was needed was the space after the colon which I think you inadvertantly didn’t make. All fixed now. Back to our discussion!
CollegeMom :o

BurnThis · May 19, 2006, 10:40am

What I thought after reading the list of winners was – is there room at the top for kids who haven’t already begun on their career path in High School? There were almost no just generally intellectually curious, hard working kids – they all were so focused and directed at such a young age. I thought college was a time to explore, but if you’ve been doing molecular research or math proofs in high school, you’re probably not going to be exploring other things in college. It seems like you already have to be an expert at something to go to a top college – but what’s the point if you’re already the expert.

Northstarmom · May 19, 2006, 10:54am

Comments following up some previous posts:

<ol>
<li>While it’s true that Ivies and similar colllege are no longer wanting to fill their classes with well rounded individuals as they did back when we were young, such colleges always are interested in the rare students who genuinely are well rounded. These are the exceptional students who have deep passions and talents in several disparate areas, and who manage to take leadership and have impact in several disparate areas. These are NOT students who pad their resumes with memberships in a variety of activities that the students have little interest in and offer little to. The exceptionally well rounded students have incredible organizational skills allowing them to juggle several activities while keeping grades high and while contributing strongly to the ECs. As is the case with the well lopsided students, the truly well rounded students also contribute to the most competitive colleges’ creating well rounded classes. </li>
<li>The reason that the USA Today list had so many kids with high achievements in the sciences is because it’s very hard to do this in other fields. Due to the federal and other grants designed to create home grown scientists, there are competitive, excellent summer science programs designed to help accellerate the most talented sci/math students’ progressin during research, including under the instruction of top research scientists. The Intel sci fairs also help students develop those skills.</li>
</ol>

It’s much harder to get such opportunities in other fields with the exception, perhaps of music, which has high level instruction and competition available. While history fairs exist, those don’t have the funding and other support that science fair has, including lacking free excellent summer programs for the top historians. Similarly, there are expensive, excellent summer writing programs for talented writers, but there aren’t other systematic ways of showcasing and training top high school writers.

<ol>
<li>Re: Question about room at the top: I think that the USA Today list has the creme de la creme of the students who are most talented and focused. These probably are students who are rare in that they get on their career paths very early and also have an exceptional amount of talent, drive and support in terms of mentoring and access to resources. Probably many will end up being tops in the country or world in their chosen fields, and those fields will probably be science related.</li>
</ol>

From what I’ve seen, many scientists do start on their career paths very young. That’s not true of top people in many other fields, which may build more on the wisdom and general knowledge that people get by trying a variety of fields and experiences before settling into one area.

There also are current high school students who will end up being experts in fields not created yet: fields that they eventually will create. They probably won’t show up on USA Today’s lists because what those students are doing now probably would not seem worthy of acclaim.

fhimas88888888 · May 19, 2006, 6:45pm

marite - although I agree with your comment:

“If a student needs caffeine or amphetamines to cope with 6APs, there’s something drastically wrong with that student’s program.”

I think that there is really no other way around it. I attend a private school where I get 4 plus hours of homework in my harder quarters and around 2-3+ in my easier quarters. In addition to my music, I also compose music, play saxophone, and practice speech. I have achieved very high awards in all of those three areas, but have only been able to do that by pulling 18-20 hour days day in and day out. In order to be competitive in the composing world, I must write something every day, which usually involves thirty minutes. In order to keep up with fellow saxophone players my age, I either need to do hardcore practicing on the weekend or spend thirty minutes each night practicing. Speech takes talent (which, if you read the article I posted, is nothing more than passion and hard work) and hard work in order to succeed. These time commitments reduce sleeping time.

Although this may seem unhealthy, many of my peers (including myself) get a natural high from getting extremely stressed and relieving that stress through doing well on tests, projects, and competitions. We aren’t getting the sleep we need - that is true. But I would be VERY surprised if the majority of the kids in that article weren’t maintaining similar workaholic schedules. While not exactly healthy, using time (that would normally be meant for rest) productively has pleasing results, which can generally make up for the deleterious nature of sleep deprivation.

anitaw · May 19, 2006, 7:16pm

I found the last post frightening. ‘Pleasing results’ are one thing. Rationalizing that they justify a day in/day out schedule of 18/20 hour days and drugs of any sort to sustain this is clear evidence of the sort of foolishness that suggests your parents and you need to have a serious discussion. Invite your pediatrician to discuss the latest research on adolescent brain development and sleep deprivation. Really.

fhimas88888888 · May 19, 2006, 11:41pm

Yes, you’re right anitaw. In my freshmen year, I had loads of time to be in every club and ever class I could possibly get into and still have time for 8-10 hours of sleep. The problem was that I continued that practice of doing as much as I could through this year, my junior year. The results weren’t so pleasing: I ended up getting my first B+ of my high school career in one of the harder classes I was taking in my hard quarter. It was so bad, in fact, that I could barely stay awake in class.

I have, of course, stopped that foolish habbit. However, I still feel that if I am not pushing myself as hard as I can, I am slacking off. Now I get an average of 5-6 hours of sleep a night, which is fine for me.

My parents and I had that serious discussion when my grade dropped. Nonetheless, I have achieved more in my junior year than in my freshman and sophomore years combined. I understand what sleep deprivation is and know first hand what it does to your critical thinking capacity (as in taking tests: on tests that I should be able to ace, I get an A or an A- because I can’t think clearly). While this may seem like clear evidence to drop stuff, this past year fortunately or unfortunately demonstrates that pushing yourself to the limit (but NOT past the limit) has major benefits.

Traditionally, private schools dish out more homework than public schools give out. Consequently, preps have less time to excel in extra curricular activities. I have a friend in speech who is able to work from 4 pm till 9 pm at night ever day, and still get in bed by 11 - giving him 8 hours of sleep. The small size of our school allows us to participate in more activities. So when it comes down to getting first at a competition on the weekend and getting an A on the history test, we choose both.

If you can find a sizeable group of kids that are all conference sports and the lead in the school play (or some combination of 2+ unrelated activities) and still get straight As without losing a wink, let me know.

Oh, and by the way. I DO NOT and WILL NEVER use any drugs of any kind (except the usuals like coffee and maybe an energy drink when absolutely necessary) to maintain my schedule. That is unhealthy.

I love my life, and every part of it except for one thing: days should be 28 hours. ;-)

StickerShock · May 20, 2006, 8:59am

“When kids with profiles such as these win prestigious award, it encourages the academic equivalent of the overuse injuries currently an epidemic in youth sports.”

Very good analogy, GFG. I see similarities in the parents of these two groups, as well. Dads with clenched jaws cringing at every ball their young pitcher throws. Pulling their son off the ice to give him an earfull if he’s not skating hard enough. “Editing” their kids’ research papers. Micromanaging their daughter’s choice of after school clubs. Fighting for grade changes for their little prodigy. Oten these kids drop everything as soon as they are free from mom or dad’s oppressive control.

Northstarmom: One thing I’ve noticed about summer enrichment camps & the like is that top notch universities offer plenty of very reasonably priced athletic camp opportunities. Music enrichment, however, costs an arm and a leg for the same length of stay & similar student/teacher ratios. Similar “prestige” level, as well.

fhimas88888888 · May 20, 2006, 10:08am

StickerShock - I disagree about music enrichment prgrams. Northstarmom: almost all states’ have an educator’s music association and they problem support some kind of an all state program. Those programs are generally inexpensive. Moreover, I would do a little searching on the web, for I have been able to attend week overnight programs for less than 500 dollars .

Northstarmom · May 20, 2006, 11:49am

While there are things like All State and similar inexpensive programs, they are not as prestigious or as hard to get into as, for instance are programs like RSI. Getting to go to All State is not as prestigiuos as winning Intel Science Fair.

Consequently, when it comes to picking the USA h.s. team, it’s much easier to find a pool of talented science students – who have achieved at an outstanding level nationally – than it is to find a similar group of students in music or most other areas.

TheGFG · May 20, 2006, 3:01pm

In response to Epiphany who said “I’m not sure whether you thought before, or after application, that H was not “transparent” enough.”

My S never applied to Harvard–never had the slightest interest. He never applied to a number of other Ivies and elites either because the name was not enough of a reason to do so. I only used the Harvard example because someone had quoted their very nebulous admissions information in a previous post.

To reiterate my point, given that there is limited time and money to apply to a large number of colleges, a bit more statistical guidance, such as what MIT gives, would have been helpful in assessing chances.
No one is asking for total predictability or guarantees, but I stand by my assertion that many admissions presentations we heard had the potential to ecourage applications from students who had no realistic chance at all of getting in. Actually, the officers and tour guides tended to highlight those outliers, eg. the rare examples of students with low SAT’s who still got in. Whether done intentionally or not, the effect was that a marginal applicant would leave with a sense of hope that probably wasn’t justified. This is not to say that such a student should not apply for the heck of it, but it should be clear how much of a reach it is and how likely it is that the $65 would be wasted.

FYI: I have no personal axe to grind here in the sense that my son was accepted to several elite schools. It worked out fine in the end and my fees weren’t wasted. Still, until those letters arrived we did not have a very good idea at all how likely those acceptances would be.

DRJ4 · May 20, 2006, 4:41pm

Excellent post, TheGFG.

As a society, we value information to help us make good choices. The more transparent and easily available that information is to the consumer, the better that consumer can make an informed decision. The fact that some people may be “delusional” and make questionable decisions does not justify having an opaque admissions system, let alone refusing to make that information more readily available to the consumer.

epiphany · May 20, 2006, 4:46pm

Dear GFG,
You’ll get no argument from me that colleges & U’s are often irresponsible about implying, even stating, misleading admissions statistics, exceptions to the rule, etc. I agree with you also if you’re implying that your repeated experience with that is probably not the result of accident. However, I still think that it is up to the consumer to get educated about the message within the medium. Regardless of what you or I believe that higher education responsibility to be, they are still businesses, & thus operate on business principles of supply & demand, perceived & actual consumer choice (i.e., ranking), “sales” records, etc.

I return to the issue of jobs in “hot” metro markets. Employers posting ads in newspapers & online OFTEN mislead. Imo, they mislead far more regularly than colleges do. The stated benefits, salary (maximums stated as minimums, ranges deceptively stated), requirements, working conditions, reporting responsibilities – these are all colored & shaped so as to attract large numbers of apps. The “large numbers” in this case have a different intent than do the broader intents of college administrations. Employers want to make sure they include all possible highly qualified individuals; colleges do, too, but with colleges the greed for apps obviously includes other motives. OTOH, employers (because rankings are not an issue), have the choice whether to aim for maximum inclusiveness or exclusiveness. Those who can predict a flood of job apps – because the employer, location, position may be popular or desirable, or because the qualifications are minimal – often aim for greater exclusivity to make the sifting easier.

But in both cases, the market is controlled by the advertisers. Over the years I’ve learned to “read” ads better, have become more efficient & accurate about predicting the unknowns. (Generally, the less info provided, the less likely it is that I will apply, due to the long shots of acceptance & the long shots of satisfaction, were I to be selected.) One can always apply to those “long shots” – those with a stated exclusivity, those with deceptively or ambiguously stated requirements & standards – but we make our choices & take our chances with such efforts, it seems to me.

Again, this is why an engine like Naviance is helpful. The “range” may be broad, but if 85-95% are clustered around 4.0+GPA & 2390+SAT, the stats don’t lie & are not being spun. One can draw a conclusion that if your stats are only in the range of the one “oddball” acceptance, a rejection would be no surprise.

P.S. I wasn’t meaning to imply that your arguments have arisen out of disappointment with admissions results; sorry if it sounded that way. I know that your inquiry is intellectually based, but I think that the economics affects available information in a way that will not provide greater transparency.

DRJ4 · May 20, 2006, 6:54pm

Epiphany,

If a business places a false and misleading advertisement in the newspaper, it can be sanctioned with civil and possibly criminal law penalties. I don’t think it is helpful to analogize college admissions to business advertising, especially since the information provided by college admissions is generally quite vague.

Colleges are businesses but, especially at the Ivy League level, they are more like monopolies. I think part of the attraction people feel for Ivy League colleges is the secrecy surrounding admission. As has been stated on this thread by elite college graduates, to be admitted to schools like Harvard is tantamount to gaining admission to an exclusive private club. Are there advantages to being a member of an exclusive private club? Certainly. I’m just not convinced that, in this day and age, colleges should be in the exclusive private club business.

epiphany · May 20, 2006, 8:20pm

DRJ,
I could not disagree with you more. Private universities, accent on “private,” are not bound to transparency. As to the Truth in Advertising Rules, it would be more than a full-time job to get businesses posting job notices held to account for their wildly false representations in all the categories I mentioned. Yes, I could complain & even sue (possibly): it would take an army of lawyers who would be uninterested in the low odds – for the same reason they would be uninterested in equally low odds of complaining to, or about private universities – in the personal or professional roles of said lawyers. In fact, I could throw this right back to you. You seem just righteously indignant about the so-called untruth in advertising (or information dissemination) that you claim many Ivies are guilty of – although I must say you generate an enormous amount of interest in the topic for someone who also states that family’s admissions results have been successful to peer universities.

You want transparency? Look at public universities. They are much more bound to official guidelines when it comes to public disclosure. (As people could argue that anyone wanting fuller disclosure about employment opportunities should similarly stay in the public sector – government, public education, etc. I mean the stipulations are so thorough, dry & statistical at times that it’s a wonder the whole world isn’t turned off. Is that what you want from colleges? More to the point: even the public sector cannot predict, by plugging in qualifications, who will be hired. There’s a subjective decision factor every bit as crucial as for college admissions.)

And as to full disclosure in either workplace sphere – public or private – totally no employer is bound to reveal why the company or agency did not hire an applicant. It’s called confidentiality: the same principle by which college admissions deparments & college administrations operate. I may find it annoying not to know why a person “less qualified” got hired (if/when I do know that, or find it out), but an employer is no more bound to tell me why I was not hired with greater qualifications & experience, than a college is bound to disclose similar information to an applicant. (…so that the next incoming class of applicants can “predict” whether any of them, or which ones, will be accepted.) I think the analogy is quite apropos; it’s just that many people resist fully accepting that colleges are both academies and businesses.

Private institutions are also free to “spin” their image as they like. We don’t have to join those “clubs” we don’t care to, do we? Specifically, no doubt a few such institutions like being perceived as “exclusive” or quasi-private-club in outlook or policy. They like it because they know it appeals to a core group of applicants & donors that they want to continue to attract. That image-promotion is by no means limited to Ivies: it is shared by many elementary & high schools I can name, by many retail stores I can name.

Bottom line: You say that H is not an issue for your family personally, yet you’ve singled out H for special criticism. (I’m not a particular fan of H, but I’m just trying to follow your argument.) You say you’re satisfied with your family’s college acceptance outcomes, yet you’ve spent a huge amount of energy criticizing Ivies for their supposed secrecy, when secrecy either benefitted your family or was inconsequential. Something’s missing here; I don’t get the where & why of your anger or disapproval. However, I like to be constructive. Many people start their own blogs as sort of information dissemination – in addition to opinion, which naturally CC is also. Why not start your own blog or page, with just this topic? It’s just that I think you’re going to go round & round here, & you may very well find more like-minded souls in a more dedicated forum.

JMO.

epiphany · May 20, 2006, 8:40pm

<a href=“About Us”>About Us;

It is also Xiggi’s favorite website.;)

TheGFG · May 20, 2006, 11:24pm

“I don’t get the where & why of your anger or disapproval.”

I know this was directed to DRJ4, but I’ll answer using my interpretation of what I’ve heard parents express. I think folks have a sense of being a pawn, of being used.

Imagine if you saw an ad in the Sunday newspaper for a really fabulous widget. The whole family loves it. You drive to the store, only to learn that to be admitted you have to pay an entrance fee. You hesitate, because you don’t know in advance if the merchandise you want will be in stock. But you have the money to buy the product and it’s a store with a good reputation (that is, it’s not one of the discount stores that advertises great specials which are nowhere to be found when you arrive). So you pay, and walk in hoping to find that fancy widget that you need for tomorrow. You see other customers with those widgets in their carts, so you eagerly search the aisles until you finally locate them. But they’re stored high on the very top shelf where you can’t reach them. You hunt down a clerk, but he refuses to bring a ladder and get one down for you. You are angry and disappointed. Not only don’t you have a widget in your cart, but you’ve spent time and money only for the “privilege” of gazing longingly at the widgets from afar. You find the manager to complain that the store advertised a product as being available, when in reality it wasn’t available to you. He explains that there must have been something the clerk didn’t like about you or he would have helped you. There’s nothing he can do about it now, because there are no more widgets left. And no, he’s not authorized to refund your entrance fee. You look at your watch. It’s 9:00 PM. It’s too late now to try your luck at another store, as they will all be closed. When you arrive back home, the kids run to the door to be the first to see and use the widget, but you must tell them you haven’t brought it.

The student works hard to meet the admissions criteria of an elite school as best he understands them. He prepares to buy and then pays for the right to begin the purchase process. Remember, it is the student who is the customer–and of a very expensive product at that. The college, however, decides not to let him buy the education. Others are allowed to buy, but the student doesn’t know why he wasn’t permitted to do so. He thought he was a good fit. He wishes he would have known in advance that he wasn’t, so as to save himself the money and effort which could have been better spent applying elsewhere.

No doubt someone will soon elaborate on the flaws in this allegory. It’s not intended to parallel the college issue perfectly, but I hope it succeeds in communicating the type of feelings invoked.

marite · May 20, 2006, 11:48pm

I understand that many companies advertise for bogus job openings so as to seem vibrant and expanding. So I buy into Epiphany’s comparison between private companies and private universities. In the case of private universities, many (most) do not intentionally seek to deceive (unlike companies posting bogus job ads); instead, they are trying to leave themselves enough wiggleroom to make exceptions to norms. For example, when MIT says it looks for students with SAT V score of 600+, it is not seeking to attract hundreds of applicants with such scores to increase its yield, but to give itself the ability to admit a truly lopsided student who shows talent in different areas. Yet, there will be students who, upon reading that statistics, will think that they have a shot at MIT without having the extra compensating talent.

What Extra Curricular Activities (ECs) Top Schools REALLY want

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