I know the people in question very well. (Lifelong friends.) I’m very concerned that the mother is exacerbating the split, by constantly tearing down the father in front of their daughter, with whom she lives. Yes, the father is definitely being difficult, uncooperative about finances, uncommunicative, and hardly role-model Dad. However, the atmosphere at Mom’s home is highly charged, partisan, and divisive, with constant haranguing in daughter’s hearing – to others – about how awful the Dad is. — i.e., not just what an awful person he is behaving as, but what an awful father he is. I’ve heard of these situations before but never personally witnessed one. I.m.o. all of this constant dumping is over the top, and by doing this she is not serving her daughter well.
For example, I have a divorced friend who, when her daughter was a similar age (high school), told me privately that she did not respect what seemed to be the father’s use of his greater wealth to manipulate & control his ex-wife and his daughter by withholding and giving based on outcomes. However, I do not recall her bashing him when her daughter was present.
My mother also did not make long, belligerent speeches when divorcing my father and when we were minors. Later, when an adult, I did hear (naturally) about some of her disappointment and disapproval of some of his behavior toward her, but she never claimed that he was a bad father or tried to alienate me from him.
If you were in a similar situation as Paragraph One and knew the family well, would you say something to Mom, and if so, what and how? Or, have any of you experienced this with a friend or relative and found a way to be a constructive influence?
OP, I have been in your situation a few times, not only as a close observing friend but, as a child of repeated divorces myself. My advice to you is to speak from personal experience if you can. No one likes to be told they are harming their kids. If you lead with that, you will lose any influence you might have.
Start by listening. Let them know you will do what you can to help. This might be helping with carpool or bringing over meals for the freezer. Work your way toward the topic by asking questions. “How are the kids holding up?” “Is there anything you can do to help out the kids because you are worried.”
Then share from what you know. In my case I can say, no child comes out of a divorce situation without battle scars. I can remember all the fighting even as an adult. Remind the person that they are setting an example whether they want to or not.
I share that my own Mom did an outstanding job of showing strength during crummy times. I respect her even more from an adult perspective. She gave me the gift of not tearing down my flawed father because, she knew, that any child would always love their Dad. She guarded against hurting me by not tearing down my Dad in front of me.
When I finally grew old enough to understand what really took place, my respect for her grew tremendously!
The goal is to help the kids handle things well, short term and long term. Don’t take the easy way out by dwelling on the negative stuff about a loved parent just because the kids are the closest ones you can complain to.
Handling this conflict well might mean that your own kids are less likely to repeat your own mistakes.
I share that although my parents were both married and divorced multiple times, my siblings and I all have long lasting marriages. There has been no divorce in our generation. This is a testimony to the way our parents handled things. Yes it’s a horrible situation for the adults but, the kids shouldn’t have to suffer any more than is unavoidable.
Speak your mind and ask their opinion. Advice given in love is far more effective.
Good luck!
@PokeyJoe
You’ve been generous,insightful, and sensitive in your comments. The thing is, the teenager (carpools aren’t necessary; she drives) was already somewhat alienated from her father during the separation, due to his lack of initiative in keeping bonds with his D during the separation. She herself has already been hurt & disappointed, so the opportunity for alienation was already there, and he has taken few steps to mend that breach. OTOH, the mother is also reminding him often enough about how he has alienated himself, and of course the mother is actively hostile. Many men would avoid a situation where they will lose no matter what they do because of the atmosphere in the other household.
I’m thinking that what I might do is question Mom the next time she complains about his paternal absence, asking her if maybe Dad perceives it’s 2 against 1, and asking her if she thinks that could be part of the problem.
Maybe approach the negative with a positive: “this is frustrating, irresponsible disappointing,…Sounds difficult to try to keep things calm for x. Can I help by just listening? Any other thoughts about how to be constructive going forward?”, etc. Since many feel powerless in the face of divorcing an uncooperative spouse, focussing on how much of a difference she CAN make for her daughter seems important.
I have a very good friend whose parents divorced when she was just starting high school. She was the eldest of a handful of kids (the youngest was about 2) when the dad decided he “just didn’t want to be married anymore.” Before too long he turned up with a little red sports car and a new blonde wife with 4 little kids of her own. Meanwhile, my friend & her siblings all got after school jobs as soon as they turned 16 to help their previously SAHM mom pay the bills while she want back to school. They were all pretty upset with the dad.
But the mom acted like your friend. She was so angry & bitter that she didn’t miss a chance to tear down the dad in front of the children. It went on and on and on, even after she got a good job, after all her kids grew up and still got to go to sleep away college, after she remarried and bought her own house, and after her kids married and had kids of their own. It went on until her kids finally told her to just stop because they didn’t want that negativity near their kids. By then it was too late; they’d developed a good deal of sympathy for their dad and a lot of memories they’d stored away about their mom are as this unpleasant, critical person.
I would suggest to your friend that the way she handles this situation is modeling for her kids. It will color their view of marriage (one of my friend’s siblings vowed in high school never to get married and she hasn’t either), it will affect how they view her, and it will make it difficult for the children to have a relationship with their dad, which isn’t fair to them. He’s divorcing the mom, not the kiddos. I hope it works out well for them. It’s a tough situation for kids of any age.
Honestly, the daughter is the only one who can put her big girl pants on and be an “adult” about it. The parents apparently are too emotionally invested in the situation to see that they could be ruining their daughter’s life.
The overall gist is that some folks think that this is a tool by the “poor non-custodial parent who can’t defend themselves against lies spread by the custodial parent” and others think “it is a clear mental illness that some custodial parents have so they can get as much money and time with the child as possible”. The APA has decided it is not a mental disorder or condition (it is a “relationship problem”).
My confusion is if the events where mom unloads how horrible dad is to the daughter weren’t witnessed, how do you know about them? If the daughter is reaching out to you, why not accommodate her with a lunch date or shopping trip? Could you reach out to her with some ameliorating talk or maybe even a chance to vent?
She’s the one that is the concern - when people are hateful in front of their kids, even adult kids, it can hurt them.
I think @austinmshauri brought up an important point: I myself almost didn’t marry because of parental tension. (Not that my mother constantly bashed my father as my friend is doing; rather it was the silence in the household.) As individuals, my parents did their best to be good parents even during that time & the eventual divorce. However, the experience was profound enough for me that it took a wonderful man to assure me that our relationship was not my parents’. I think the scarring aspect can be determinative, yes.
@travelnut
Unfortunately, “Can I help by just listening?” is a role I’ve been playing. And I’m not being treated as a listener so much as a mere garbage can. There is no back-and-forth. She is not asking for my sympathy, my opinion, my suggestions. She merely dumps. There’s an irony in this: She recently described her D’s emotional acting out, partly having to do with college coming up, partly having to do with the messy divorce. A relative also got into the act by telling the D she couldn’t dump on/blame Mom. But guess where the D is learning it? She’s doing to her Mom what Mom is doing to absent Dad. When Mom told me about D’s dumping, I suggested that D deserves some counseling during this trying time. Mom brushed me off, claiming that “she has a therapist.” I.m.o. it is Mom who needs the professional intervention, and she needs to keep her anger in the presence of adults, not her D. A household filled with anger is toxic.
I’m not sure if I’m answering your question, or if I understand your question. The “events” are these:
(1) his demonstrated lack of initiative in contacting his D, arranging to see her. (There is no restraining order, nor has the Mom refused or discouraged him from making such contact. However, as I said earlier, he may not have a lot of motivation, given the atmosphere.)
(2) the money games being played; he holds all of it, is spending lavishly (this has happened long prior to the separation, and yes I witnessed it); he is using money as a weapon, as many couples do during divorces. He has also expressed only modest interest in contributing to college costs.
It’s one thing for a younger child to hear this stuff, but if this is a 17 year old, then likely the DD already knows, likely has heard these issues, and likely knows the reasons behind the divorce. The DD may also, on a near daily basis, be “feeling” the financial effects of what is going on (if support isn’t coming, and bills aren’t getting paid, etc).
If a parent is truly awful, and has been an awful parent (and yes, some ARE), and the OLDER child already is aware of it, then pretending that he/she isn’t awful doesn’t serve a great purpose, either. In fact, I think it’s a negative to pretend that an awful parent is a “good” parent or even an “ok” parent. Kids model the behaviors (particularly parenting behaviors) that they have witnessed. I think it’s better for an older child to be told, “That isn’t right. That isn’t good parenting” (if the behavior is truly bad, like being drunk in front of the kids or being verbally/physically abusive). Who would suggest that the “good parent” pretend that an “abusive parent” is a fine parent???
@mom2collegekids
I don’t think I have suggested that pretense would be a good way to go, but you are correct that honesty is also important. I guess (I would hope!) that this is the way I would want to respond in a similar situation: “D, I know it’s obvious to you that Dad and I are going through a rough time; It is very unpleasant for me and can only be unpleasant for you as well. I also do not approve of his withholding money and keeping us in the dark about your future; I think that is neither fair to me nor to you. However, he is your father and I will do my best to encourage him to stay a part of your life; I also encourage you to accept any invitations of his in that regard. His relationship with you is a legitimate relationship aside from the marriage & divorce. It’s possible that the more involved he stays in your life, the more responsible a parent toward you he will continue to be.”
@epiphany I like that response. I’m going through a divorce right now and I have made it clear to H that I believe it is always in the best interest of our kids (one just graduated college the other one just finished first year) to have a relationship with him. And because I love our kids I would never do or say anything to interfere with that. I also will do what I can to encourage that relationship. It is not the role of our kids to have to choose sides or to determine who is right/wrong. They just need their parents to be there for them. I am in a better place emotionally than my H right now so I am encouraging our kids to be patient while he finds his way. This is what a family does. And we will always be a family.
Bitterness and resentment and anger are so unattractive. I don’t ever want to be that way.
I grew up with divorced parents and married a man whose parents divorced during the first year when we were dating. So I have some knowledge of this sort of situation.
It is upsetting to have one parent constantly criticize the other one in front of you. My parents, to their credit, made an effort not to do this, but they slipped up sometimes. My husband’s parents made no effort at all, but fortunately, he wasn’t with his parents much because he was already in college when they split.
Can you suggest to your friend that she vent to you rather than her daughter? You might tell her that unlike her daughter, you’re not close to the situation and therefore won’t be very upset by the things she wants to say. (There’s a hint in there, but she may not pick up on it.) So she can vent to you freely, instead of watching what she says, the way she would need to do with her daughter. (There’s another hint.)
Of course, this is an imposition on you, but it’s a nice thing that you could do to benefit the daughter.
We were sometimes asked to do that as children. It was very heavy for us. Then I had to do that in court when I was 17. It was excruciatingly painful to me to be asked to evaluate my parents publicly. I knew they each had their virtues and their weaknesses; I also didn’t want the Court to think that just because I got along better with my father (much better), that I was making a judgment about my mother’s parenting. While she was not an ideal parent, she had significant hurdles, some of which related to practical matters having nothing to do with her emotional relationship with her husband. My relationship with her was tense and one of great extremes – good and bad. To me, that just “was”; it wasn’t necessarily an indictment of her.
I guess this is part of the subtext for me: While no one loses her individuality in a family, a family is a unit as well, even if a broken unit. It pains me to see such ongoing, expressed division in my friend’s situation because we derive our identity partly from our families, and our self-image as well. I see the constant drawing lines in the sand as s way of perpetuating division and fragmentation of the person.
@Marian
Another thoughtful reply. To be honest, though, she dumps on me already far too much. We’re talking histrionics, sobbing, carrying on for 20-40 minutes at a time. I never bring anything up about the marital situation. Ever. She initiates it. I feel as if I’m the unpaid counselor here, which is of course a separate issue from the one I posted and asked about. It has become such a dominant subject with her that I have resorted to emails (she’s not an extensive emailer, so that right there limits the opportunity; her style is short emails) and even text messages, seriously. It doesn’t seem productive that I am the garbage can and nothing productive is being done with the hysterics, since I am not a professional.
But the point is that she also carries on like that on the phone when her D is in the room.
Yes, I could become a candidate for Sainthood, LOL, by crucifying myself further.
I do have a relationship with the daughter, yes. However, she and I have never discussed the marriage, divorce, or her father’s relationship with her. I guess I could be alert to the opportunity to offer to listen, but only if it arises somewhat spontaneously or logically. Bringing it up out of the blue would, I think, look artificial and awkward for her.
This brings up a point I’ve tried to impress upon my children: it is never a good idea to be totally financially dependent on another person. I’m fully confident Mr.S and I will be together forever, but divorce isn’t the only unfortunate event that can befall couples. You have to plan ahead.
I’ve been a SAHM for many years, but I’m college educated, well known in our community because of my volunteer efforts, I’ve continued to work part-time off and on in my field, my name is on every bill and account and deed (even though my in-laws suggested otherwise because the home downpayment was money my husband had saved and I was “only” going to be contributing to the mortgage), and I have siblings with whom the children and I could live rent free for as long as we wanted/needed if I ever needed time to get on my feet.
I always feel badly for women in this financial position, but I think they have to take some responsibility for it happening. Even my mother, who was raised when the options for women were few, attended college and made sure she had the resources to take care of herself, which came in handy when her first husband turned out to be an unfaithful lout who didn’t care much for work. Back then, it involved years of investigation (which meant hiring a private detective) to get proof of infidelity so you could even qualify for a divorce. Why is it the women of our generation are finding themselves in a worse position than my mom had 60+ years ago?
@austinmshauri
All good points. However, the Mom is on full disability due to multiple medical conditions, all interacting in a complex way; this is a long-standing situation, far preceding even the separation. Before she was disabled she was highly independent financially, and well-off as well. She has tried many times to get back into the job market even part-time, but mostly it is a lost cause because her medical situations prohibit consistent employment: There is always a new crisis. And she suffers (has for a long time) from debilitating pain due to those conditions. Pain management takes a considerable amount of her energy.
And despite all of these medical hurdles, she has managed to save a decent amount of money – more than many would in her position. I must praise her for being an excellent money manager. However, that separate money is running out.