Sometimes I empathize with what is happening, while saying I am in over my head as it is so complex. Then one can make note of how hard it is for all going through a divorce and how helpful an outside, professional counselor has been to others. It’s a gracious setting of limits and may make sense. She’ll either get professional input or move on to another friend who will listen forever without any accountability required on her part. (She sounds like someone who might wear one out, even without this crisis.)
I hope when the kid grows up she can see both the positive sides of both parents. Maybe the mom is in pain.
It sounds like a tough situation.
Thanks, jym! 
Divorce is a rollercoaster ride for both parents and the children. It is especially hard on the mother because in most cases the children reside with the mother and she is trying to provide the same quality of lifestyle they were used to when both parents are together. Honestly it is easy to judge being an outsider looking in but for the mother going through this it is a very difficult time. Don’t underestimate what she is going through. This is a major change in her life. In her mind she must be thinking how am I going to manage financially and make sure these kids are taken care of because like it or not most of the responsibility is born by the mother. A father can choose to participate in a child’s life or manipulate the money situation but usually it is the mothers and children’s standard of living that goes down and they are most effected. The mother is scared, her heart is full of fear because the future is unknown. This is the time she will find out who her real friends are. She needs a lot of compassion, patience, and support because that will help her to better deal with the circumstances. Also just because a legal divorce takes place it doesn’t mean the emotions that go with being married just get automatically switched off. She will heal over time but it takes a lot of strength to go through a divorce and make sure the kids are ok when the parent themselves is so emotionally depleted from this experience. A lot of times the mothers feel alienated and lose family friends. She needs someone who can truly be there to listen to her and try to help her adjust to this new way of living. She doesn’t need someone telling her what to do. She just needs to know that she has the support of friends. She shouldn’t be made to feel someone is interfering and telling her what to do. (a lot of people are there to tell you how to run your life) Most people are with you in good times and run away during the bad times. If this situation is something you can’t handle just be honest with her and tell her. On her own she will stop calling you to discuss her issues. Being judgemental is not going to help her in anyway.
It is easy to say well if I was in this situation I would do this. When you are actually going through it how you react may be totally different. The one who is going through the difficulties is the only one who truly knows what they are going through. Everyone else is just an outsider looking in.
Thank you for calling me judgmental. Do others here think I’m being “judgmental?” After all, I wouldn’t know what the heck being divorced is all about, given that I was in the middle of my parents’ own divorce. And, being widowed when our children were tiny, I also wouldn’t know what the heck being afraid of the future is all about, either.
I actually don’t think you read my previous posts. I have been far more compassionate toward her than just about anyone else I happen to know at the moment. I’ve heard far more about her divorce and listened to more hours and hours of sobbing for the last 2 years than any one in her close-knit family has.
I don’t think being an unpaid amateur therapist indefinitely falls within what I am morally required to do.
Have a nice day.
Well…I’m going to give somewhat different advice.
I’m divorced. It was the world’s ugliest divorce. Our offspring were young.
Don’t try to tell the mom what to do or how to parent. All you’ll do is antagonize her and make her feel more abandoned than ever. Focus instead on your own role. If mom tries to talk to you on the phone about H, ask if D is there and might be able to hear her. Ask if she is sure D can’t. Then say something like “I don’t feel comfortable talking to you about your divorce when I know D might overhear our conversation. There’s a lot of truth to that old saying “litte pitchers have big ears.” I don’t want her to be guessing what I’m saying to you based on your responses. I find myself being careful in what I say to you because I’m filtering it through my concern about what she’s hearing. So, please, don’t call me to talk about the divorce when D is there. It’s just too uncomfortable for me.”
Second:
I know it’s not fun for you. I wrecked a friendship because I did the same thing (though not when my offspring could hear.) The truth is, though, that what she needs most in the world right now is someone who just lets her dump.My priest ended up playing this role for me. I used to call him and say “Father, can I come talk at you?”
When you go through a divorce, or at least when I did, everyone starts offering you advice. They mean well. However, people don’t agree on the advice they give you. If you appear to be listening to it, and then don’t follow it, they get angry. Some people try to take over and run your life for you. My brother in law thought I should remarry as soon as possible. So, every time I’d see him, he’d launch into criticisms about my hair, my clothes, the fact I rarely wear make up. When I’d say–truthfully–that I had no interest in dating at that point, he’d say something like “You aren’t getting any younger. It will be harder to atract someone else when you’re older. Don’t waste time.” (He thinks he was right because I never remarried.) He also launched into criticisms of my D’s behavior. “She’s a brat.” Yes, she was acting out. I knew that. I didn’t let her get away with murder, but when she was “fresh” I didn’t clamp down on her the way I would have if I hadn’t known she was upset about the divorce.
My mom thought I should be pumping our offspring for as much information about what went on during vists with dad. My lawyer wanted me to do what was best for her strategy in the divorce…even if it would hurt our offspring. Not my way.
The school waded in with its procedures for dealing with students whose parents were divorcing. There was a school psychologist. I consulted a child psychiatrist who gave advice different from the school psychologist–and that of my mom, my lawyer, my S and BIL.
It was not possible to keep all of these people happy. The LAST thing I needed was friends giving me THEIR advice too. …especially if they had the expectation I would follow it. What I did need was friends who would listen or pitch in and help when I needed help.
You SHOULD set limits though. If that means failing to pick up when you see her number on the caller ID or limiting yourself to emails or telling her that you have to put limits on your conversations, that’s fine.
ETA, I was typing when raclut posted her message.
@epiphany I think you are a caring friend who is frustrated by her behavior. I don’t see you at all as judgmental. You are able to see the bigger picture. No doubt her frustration may be real and overwhelming. But that doesn’t preclude her from seeing the longer term consequences of her behavior on her daughter. And her daughter seems to be where your concern is focused. I also can see how her constant complaining is tiring. A professional would be able to direct her on focusing on whats ahead and not behind. That’s not your job IMO.
Epiphany. This sounds like a situation where you want to be supportive to your friend…and the kiddos…but there are times when you feel uncomfortable about how your friend is talking about this when her daughter is present.
A couple of ideas.
- At the end of this all, your friend may need you as a friend. Try to consider that along with any ideas of what to do now.
- Maybe this is a less is more time. See and speak to your friend. But at the same time you need to set the amount of time you are available for this. In addition, if you know the daughter will be home, don't call or visit in person...bet you already have that figured out! This will just give the mom the opportunity to vent in the kid's presence.
- Maybe meet her in very public places for limited duration things...like at a coffee shop for coffee rather than for dinner.
- As noted by others, it probably won't do any good to say anything to your friend. It won't change what she is doing now....and it jeopardize whatever is left of your friendship.
- Divorce can really impact folks and their personalities...been there done that. People say and do things that they would never do in other situations. It's horrible...but for some, it's the way it is.
- Re read number 1. This person is going to need her friends when this is over...and she is building a different kind of life than her married life.
thumper, rom, and jonri:
Thank you all for the honest but balanced feedback.
@jonri
I don’t believe I was considering “giving her advice” in the way you narrated your own story. I am not a marriage counselor or an attorney. (She does have an attorney.) Nor have I offered an ounce of advice about the divorce or about parenting to this day. As a mother, however, and as the daughter of a divorce, it pains me to hear all the loud drama being played out in front of her daughter. You may say, “Don’t say anything,” and you may feel that it’s my job to be the dumping ground, but a concern I have, is that my very compassion ( @raclut doesn’t know me from Eve) is actually enabling the situation. The fact that I am a patient and open listener is making it possible for her to carry on for up to an hour at a time about the supposedly despicable father of her daughter, in her D’s presence. It seems to me I have more than just a loyalty obligation to my friend; I also have a moral & prudential obligation not to be an enabler. However, it seems to me that most people here view my duties as a friend to include “just listening” – no matter what the content of that speech is. This is not a recent thing, folks. This has been going on for a really long time. I have to wonder if she is doing this to any other friend, and I don’t believe she is doing this to any family member.
As I said…don’t place yourself in the position where the mom can rant while her daughter is in the same place. If you want to let her carry on…do it elsewhere. Not where the daughter is.
When I got divorced, I had no kids…but I’m quite sure I dumped on my best friend. She was fabulous…and I so appreciated her listening.
I will say…I also sought some counseling for myself…sort of “buy a friend” counseling. I went once a week, and carried on with the dispassionate counselor. Best money I ever spent. Not only did I get good advice, but it kept me from being an emotional burden to my friends.
If it comes up, you might suggest going to see someone who is impartial, and really can listen and offer advice with an impartial ear and voice. It might not be well received…but maybe it will reduce the dumping on you.
I don’t think it’s “your job” or anyone else’s to be a dumping ground. I’m only saying that may be what your friend needs most right now.
Think of it this way. Sometimes parents post here about getting calls from freshmen in college about some awful thing that’s happened or how lonely they feel and how hard it is to make friends. The parents try to figure out a resolution. Then they realize that the kid just wanted to vent and that when they feel the need to vent about what’s happening at college, they call home. They really aren’t the least bit interested in what their parents think they should do in the situation. I suspect that you may be taking the role of the “parent” here. Your friend calls you to vent. Because you put up with it, she uses you for this purpose.
If you want to put limits on that or if you even want to go so far as to say, I’ve done my fair share and I just don’t want to do any more, that’s fine. I personally though just don’t think you should criticize her for not wanting your suggestions. Indeed, I’d go so far as to say you shouldn’t criticize her for dumping stuff on you, anymore than a parent should criticize a college freshman for calling home to do it. That’s NOT the same as saying it’s your “job” to be there and do it.
I agree with you 100% that she shouldn’t have these conversations when her D can hear them. However, I suggest that instead of saying the equivalent of “You shouldn’t criticize her dad when your D can hear you”, you say “I don’t feel comfortable having these conversations with you when I know your D might be able to overhear them.”
The difference is a bit nuanced. I think that in her present fragile state, your friend may see this as an attack on her: “You’re behaving badly.” The second comes across as “I don’t like having these sorts of conversations in the presence of teenagers, so please indulge me and limit our conversations to times your D can’t hear us.”
You might suggest that your friend join a support group. I went to one for separated, divorced and remarried Catholics. It was a lot like a 12 step group. Everyone told their horror stories and we all sympathized. We all dumped on each other, so to speak. It helped.
I think that’s great advice, thumper, including the part about structuring a different location or time for her rants than when her D is present.
I’ve been in terrible emotional need (for very different reasons) several times in my own life. Haven’t we all. There’s a place for friends in being the listeners and receivers, and there’s a more efficient and constructive place, sometimes, for paid professionals – not only because it, yes, saves friendships, but also because it allows the sufferer to frame her needs and see a way out or a potential way out. It allows the sufferer to imagine a more hopeful emotional place by taking out the pain and placing it in front of her (and a therapist) in a more pragmatic way than simply identifying with the pain, being overwhelmed by it, and going no further than that. I would hope that a good friend would want her friend to journey toward a positive result and not just a stalemate of tears and a repetition of complaints. (She and I are not making progress here, folks. I am not a trained clinician.)
I will correct what I said earlier. I said I had never yet given her advice. Of course I remember (and an earlier post revealed) that when my friend complained about how her D was dumping on her, the Mom, I suggested that her D had legitimate, timely reasons to see a therapist for this enormous stress in her life & upon entering college, where she will likely benefit from ongoing support. (I also suggested that the D continue to see a counselor on campus, offering when I said that, that I needed that as an undergrad for a short spell because my relationship with my mother was turbulent, and moving away actually exacerbated that turbulence; it didn’t alleviate it.)
My good friends offer me occasional advice when they believe I need it, including at crisis times in my life. I cannot imagine never offering advice to a friend. That’s one of the many reasons for friendship.
The thoughts I expressed were based on my experience and based on what was said about the mother. I could really relate to her situation. (It was as if you were talking about me) I experienced a lot of what you described 14 years ago. You have the ability to limit how much you choose to be involved in this situation. I am sensing she really needs you at this time. I know you are not trying to be judgemental but are sincerely trying to help her. I was simply relating to this mothers situation and how she maybe feeling judged. You mentioned that she has had health problems and is in a lot of pain. That makes it harder for her to deal with the situation she is in. Till this day I have to make it a point to take care of my health because it deteriorated so badly when initially going through all of this. Things got so bad that the doctor told me you have to take care of yourself if you want to be there to raise your daughter. She has to deal with it 24 hours a day and she has no escape from it. You may not have liked what I had to say but I was only trying to help. After some point she is going to stop talking about her ex. She is going to get past it and let it go. She will get more focused on making sure those kids are raised in a peaceful environment. Sorry I couldn’t be of any help.
several of my friends divorced and I just stayed out of it
@epiphany I like you 2 vs one approach, but instead if asking if she thinks she may be part of the problem, maybe say, do you think it would help if I offered to be the pickup/drop off point for your D and Ex?
Sometimes they just need to stay out of sight, out of mind.
Epiphany, I just wanted to offer my support and sympathy. I really don’t have any advice unfortunately.
I do want to say that when someone has a chronic illness, it seems that their world becomes very small and they become very self centered. They don’t have many outlets and any other “things” to distract them. It’s very hard to be around.
I have a friend who became disabled and then her husband left her. It was very hard not to blame her illness and become bitter that had that not happened, her husband wouldn’t have left her.
The only piece of advice I can offer is something I told my mom. She is not the most positive person ever and since my dad died she likes to talk about how she would like to die (she’s not depressed, just a really negative person). I told her that I loved her but that I could not hear that she wants to be dead. That if she wanted to explore those feelings, she needed a counselor and not dump on me.
If it was me, I would have to decide if being her friend was worth your mental health. If it’s not, I would be honest and tell them how much I loved them but that she needed to be more positive around me. And if she can’t, then I need to limit my time around them.
I would like to offer my support and sympathy to the mother going through this divorce.
It is a terribly difficult situation to be in.
Good advice, @deb922
I’m sure it would REALLY be a cause for bitterness/anger if the reason for the split had been the medical disability (her own). I’m confident that that was not the source, but, if anything, a certain emotional dysfunction on the part of the ex-. However, I definitely get what you’re saying about the focus thing, and how difficult it is to “get away” from a significant crisis that splits you in two when you don’t have a regular job setting. I know myself that when I have been “idle” (relatively) and/or isolated, troubles, sadness loom large and can swallow everything.
I think what might work best for me is not leaving the relationship myself but rather focusing on the D when we have our discussions, and see if that opens up opportunities for questions from me rather than suggestions. I know that there have been wise advisors in my life who have approached me with questions that allowed me to re-evaluate my attitude or assumptions at the time. (“Do you think it might be more difficult for you when you do X?”) It was more respectful and diplomatic (as well as clever!), and therefore less threatening. I still have a friend who asks questions which seem to be her private assertions – or her questions to herself about someone’s behavior; interestingly, that friend is in training to become a licensed psychologist.
And I have never withheld that from her. Ever.