@HRSMom
Now that’s a constructive idea.
Pretty hard to do when divorce is the primary topic of conversation on the friend’s part. It’s not exactly cool to change the subject when the other person is weeping on the phone.
Post 31:
I agree, @jonri
I definitely think talking about comfort level is less alienating, and that would be the most I would do, actually. It hadn’t occurred to me to directly say, “You shouldn’t…” and I’m very sorry if I didn’t make that clear earlier.
I dumped on 4 people when I was going through my divorce last year - my mother, brother, 2 girlfriends and my therapist. One girlfriend I barely knew. She and I became very close over the event. I was very fortunate to have such a support system. They did a lot of listening, and when I got upset (crying), one particular girlfriend would just say, “Yeah, I hear ya.” This girlfriend also went through a divorce earlier. I remember one time I said to her that I was mad that my ex was being unreasonable about when he wanted to see the girls. This girlfriend said, “One advice I want to give you is to make it as easy for them to see their dad, even if it means for you to change your schedule to accommodate him, because otherwise it is your children who would feel guilty.” Her kids are grown now (30+), and they are much closer to her than with their dad.
Everyone is different with how they deal with grief and lost. I had a major crash for few months, but I actually feel better than before my divorce. I wanted my friends to listen, but I also appreciated advice from them. It was extremely helpful for me to have a therapist so I didn’t overload my family and friends.
One thing I don’t do is to say anything negative about their dad because it is between him and I. In our case, no matter what happened between us, I think both of us were (still are) good parents to our kids, and that’s the way I want our kids to think of us.
I am very sorry what your friend is going through. It is really like a death in the family.
What is hard is that you seem to be friends with the ex too, and I think you either have to pick sides or say to your friend “Look, I understand that you are really angry with Ex, but he/she was my friend too and I want to stay neutral.”
I would then recommend she join a group for support.
I had a roommate who would say horrible things about her boyfriend when they broke up (which was often) and then didn’t understand why I thought he was a jerk. I thought he was a jerk anyway, but she never said anything nice about him to change my mind so when he did something nice, I still thought he was a jerk. I finally had to tell her not to discuss him around me.
I have never said a negative about my son’s dad. I knew in time he would discover how distant he was for himself.
I have encouraged patients to do the same, but they always seem to have a meltdown and reveal all to their teenage children. They apologize, but the harm is done. Usually the issue is about money, how much the dad is spending, and how he fights over what he gives to the mom and kids. Personally, I would turn to a friend or 2, or to a therapist of my own. I would not want to wear down a friend, and I expect more objectivity from a therapist.
As a friend, I have my limits. I try to use some humor to distill the hostility. I try to have a friend see the situation from their child’s eyes. I stress the friend has obligation to act as the adult, and not look to their child to be their support. And so on.
I still remember the judge I worked for telling people fighting over the haircut given to the child by the stepmother, “In 20 years she won’t remember the haircut, but will remember the fight over it.” I’m sure they were back to fight about something else the next year.
Another dimension of this (more recent):
I’m going to ask those of you who are divorced if you can remember if you had a tendency to “blame” (in your tone of voice, in your words, in your body language) people in your life who were actually supporting you, whom you did consider and should have considered your friends, whenever anything “went wrong” during the time period you were divorcing (or shortly thereafter). I have not only noticed this tendency among other divorcees; it is happening in the relationship I described in the OP.
IOW, when you felt --for a long time-- angry, frustrated, resentful at your spouse-- did you direct that anger toward anyone who happened to cross your path any random time of day? I have seen that in other people divorcing, and I definitely see it in my relationship with this person. In fact, she turned on me in such a manner just yesterday, writing me a very nasty email which was IRRATIONAL. It bore within it the kind of resentment and vitriol people save for true enemies. This is my reward for being a patient and supportive listener for easily 3 years now.
I know at least one of you – @jonri – mentioned “losing a friendship,” and @thumper1 mentioned hiring a counselor as a “paid friend” just so that she wouldn’t lose actual friends. So my question would be especially directed at them.
Know this: Count me in as someone who does NOT consider my “job” as a true friend to accept actual verbal abuse from someone who is divorcing. The message I’m getting is, “I resent you because you are not suffering in this particular way, and [supposedly] there can be no great a pain as what I am experiencing.”
To anyone who may feel that way - have that perception - I will say I consider that an arrogant & alienating point of view. No one here, including me, has any idea what any other individual’s level of suffering is, because all suffering is subjectively experienced, and one person’s mild annoyance is another person’s lifelong Greek tragedy. We not only have different tolerance levels for suffering; we have different judgments about what we consider true suffering. All we can say is that different sufferings affect different people in different ways. EACH of these various sufferings
death
divorce
illness or major disability
financial disaster
career loss
family trauma (child, other relative)
crime
mental illness
has its unique configuration of pain and intensity. Not anyone here, and not I, is/am in a position to say that so-and-so’s divorce “must be more painful” than someone else’s financial disaster, mental illness, public humiliation, or spousal death. How the heck would anyone here be able to gauge, with some invisible measurement instrument, such supposed differences? You DON’T know, and sometimes I think the situation with divorce is that the couple going through it resents all those not going through it (or through their particular divorce) because there’s some kind of assumption that it’s “the worst pain ever.” Half of the country is divorced. Have you figured that out yet?
And by the way, those not divorced, still married, widowed, or never married, are supposedly cold for not accepting the premise that divorce is the worst thing possible that can happen to a human being, universally. I’m here to tell you that there is no absolute or universal, but the message I’m getting is that the price of friendship is accepting that lie.
I am so sorry this is happening to you epiphany. I really have no words.
I’ll pray for your friend, because what she is doing is not rational.
Thats is horrible, epiph. Time for you to divorce this friend?
Dear Deb and Jym,
What I should have added among the list of sufferings up top is
loss of friendship
Everyone (again) would respond to that differently, with different levels of regret, sadness — but for me, if you asked where it would belong in the list, it would belong higher than career loss or financial loss, at the very least. I put loss of friendship right under death (or, some say its equivalent – divorce). So naturally my heart is breaking right now, a different kind of breaking than my friend’s, but important to me, nevertheless. Thanks for your support, those who have offered support & constructive advice.
epiph,
I started this thread last December http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/1723267-when-a-friendship-has-run-its-course-sorry-this-is-a-bit-long.html when I found that a many-decades-long friendship was causing me way more heartache than benefit. I chose to step back from that friendship, though haven’t entirely closed the door. Haven’t spoken to her in 6 months. Its sad to lose a long friendship. It is another loss, which should be grieved. At one time I tried to tell my friend how her behavior was making me feel, and the response was “that’s the way I am”. That wasn’t ok. Your friend is going through a painful divorce. She is hurting, and reacting by hurting others. have you tried to tell her how her behavior is affecting your friendship? If not, try that. If she doesn’t handle it well, do consider stepping back. Negative attention is not better than no attention at all.
I think she could really benefit from meeting other mothers with kids who are in a similar situation as her. It would give her a place to vent and realize that she is not the only one going through those emotions. Those mothers would understand her feelings having gone through the challenges of divorce when kids are involved. I am not making a generalization here but I could not really share my true feelings with married friends because they were not able to comprehend what the situation was like. I did not keep up with any of my friends from the time I was married. Over time I made new friends who were more accepting of me and my situation. Culturally divorce is still frowned upon in the community that I was in. I know if I was married some of the people that I know would be more accepting.
Here is a list that I found listing the top stressers in life.
http://www.bing.com/search?q=Top+10+Stressors&FORM=QSRE3
That is indeed my next step. Right now, however, I’m not going to initiate more. (I did respond to her email, telling her politely that there was no basis in fact for her assertions about me.) However, if she does re-initiate contact, I do intend to tell her first of all that I am not her ex-spouse and do not deserve being treated as her enemy. Then if she refuses to acknowledge that she is in fact doing that, to
I agree with this:
I’ll visit your link.
Thank you, @marinam
I agree that a support group would be a terrific idea. And it actually doesn’t matter, to me, whether anyone not currently divorcing can or cannot “comprehend” the experience. (I submit that some of us with fabulous imaginations and an ability to see analogies may be better able to relate than a divorcing person realizes.) The point is the divorcing person’s perception about that. I think 50% of the inappropriately directed resentment really is about the supposition that a non-divorced/divorcing person is “unable to understand.” So, even though I happen to think that’s a false supposition, it is actually a rational supposition, and determinative for someone needing “a safe place” to vent. (“safe” including identifiable “equals.”)
I think when people are stress they do and say crazy things, it doesn’t have to be divorce. I was helping one person and I got that negative emotions and I stopped texting and now things seem to be better.
@marinam Excellent ideas. I have a friend with two kids. (one in college/one in high school)
The husband left the mother when she was diagnosed with Parkinsons. She is on disability and has to financially support both kids on her own without any support from the ex. Fortunately her parents are helping her and she has very good friends that have stayed by her side at every step. She is so grateful for those who stayed by her side.
Epiphany…if it happens…your friend wouldn’t be the first one to lose friends in a divorce…because the friends simply distance themselves from the issue. It happens. Sometimes the friendships are able to be rekindled…and sometimes not.
thumper1 I was told those people were called fair-weather friends. When things are good they are there for you. In bad times they leave you. I say fair-weather friends were never your sincere friends to begin with. But it is just best not to take it personally and just move on.
epiphany, it literally stinks that you are going through this rejection, given the level of pain and angst you have experienced in trying to be supportive and helpful to this family. This woman needs a therapist, in addition to friends, as well as hopefully a divorce support group. You need to protect your own heart, and in time she can acknowledge your need to take care of yourself, as you would encourage her to protect herself in this process. No one deserves to be treated badly.
In our area, groups associated with this book and program have helped a great number of people, and can point out some of those good principles of mental health that your have been trying to impart regarding her D. http://www.rebuilding.org/
Divorced myself, there is a place where divorced friends “get” the situation better. But every friend adds something to the conversation, and I can’t imagine giving someone a hard time for what they are or are not. My married best friend during the divorce was and still is very dear to me for being there through thick and thin, her husband as well. I really appreciate the married couple friends who have stayed close over the years, as it is good to have friends of both genders.