I am empathetic to the challeges of others because I started out from one those low-income, disadvantaged families w parents that worked nights and weekends.
The “bristling” defensive is aimed at that survey. Empathy is not the agenda of that survey. That survey is full of code words intended to emphasize that blacks, hispanics, women, gays are permanent victims.
I know I am privileged now. That survey would conclude I’m still a victim.
Read @HImom 's list again (post #24).
When I was a young woman attending an elite liberal arts college, I was privileged to befriend some classmates who were quite socially and economically privileged. What I learned is that money doesn’t necessarily shield one from profound unhappiness, and certainly not family dysfunction. In fact, two of the most miserable, and emotionally needy people I’ve ever met were family members of the founders of well known consumer product conglomerates. I sometimes suffered bouts of serious depression, and struggled with self-loathing during that time, but it was through commiserating with some of my more “privileged” friends that I think we were all able to genuinely see each other as human beings being human. I’ve never stopped valuing the perspective I gained from that experience.
@partyof5 Sadly, this still happens today. The daughter of one of my friends, graduated with MechE in 2008, just left the engineering field for the same reason.
GMT, I read post 24 again and I’m still not seeing what you are referring to as permanent victims when looking at the survey instrument as a whole. The survey is all about where we start from, not where we end up. And thankfully, as of two weeks ago, #11 can come off the list.
I guess that’s where we’ll have to vehemently disagree. I’m both black and female, but don’t see myself as any sort of “permanent victim”. There are definitely instances in which my race and gender (and increasingly, my age) present me with challenges and disadvantages that some people don’t face, but certainly not always, and I am well aware that I am privileged in many other aspects of life. My privilege, like that of most people, fluctuates, and is often situationally dependent. There are a million ways in which to be privileged. There are also a million ways in which a person’s privilege can suddenly not amount to a hill of beans. Example, two men: One is wealthy, but suffering from a debilitating disease. The other is jobless, and struggling to make ends meet, but is otherwise extremely healthy. If given the chance, to switch bodies with the healthy man, I bet the rich guy would probably jump at the chance. Likewise, the financially struggling man would probably decline the opportunity to trade his health for a life of physical misery, even if that life were set in economic luxury.
I guess I just don’t quite fathom the resentment you seem to hold concerning the topic of privilege. It exists. It’s good to appreciate when you have it, and good to appreciate the ways in which people often struggle in its absence. Gratitude and empathy are both good traits to cultivate.
Gee whiz, people, this isn’t a scientific survey of privilege. It’s a list of somewhat provocative questions intended to make you think about how obstacles are placed in front of some people, while red carpets are placed in front of others. It’s pointless to nitpick the individual questions–as entertaining as that might be. People don’t like it because they prefer the myth that your success is all about what you choose to do, and not with the privileges afforded to you.
By the way, I had no steps back at all. I think it’s about right.
We think about privilege when we get access to the frequent flier lounge. “Those who have, get,” is what we say.
Why would the question be stupid? While it is smart to learn the mannerisms of various social classes that one interacts with, it can be disadvantageous initially if one does not know them from the beginning. I.e. some people are at different “starting lines”.
Actually, the questions used could be divided into three groups:
a. where your “starting line” was (i.e. those relating to your early childhood, high school, and (if applicable) post-secondary education)
b. where your current situation is
c. applies to both your “starting line” and your current situation
a and b would be mostly economic based, while c would be mostly based on things like race and gender.
It is rather likely that that there is a high correlation between disadvantage/privilege in “starting lines” and the later life situation, although there are certainly people who move from disadvantaged “starting lines” to privileged current situations (the Oprah Winfrey example brought up in this thread) and vice-versa.
He can feel – and actually be – safer in a lot of environments.
He can wear the same outfit to a wedding that he would wear to a funeral.
He doesn’t have to wear shoes that hurt.
He can choose to postpone starting a family until he’s in his forties without having to be concerned about it.
He’ll still be considered attractive when he’s Harrison Ford’s age (assuming that he’s attractive now).
I thought that part of the rationale for getting non-traditional students into elite schools was so that the other students in these schools would gain an increased appreciation for the idea that a wide variety of people with different speech, mannerisms, customs, etc., can be just as talented and skilled as they are.
That one about speech was the only one that made me consider a step back, because when I went to college in the Northeast, I had a distinct Southern accent, which eventually became less pronounced. But it wasn’t too strong in the first place, and I didn’t consciously try to change it. But I certainly observed that people with really strong Southern accents were assumed to be dumb by people from other parts of the country.
Me too. When I moved to Australia I quickly began working on softening my American accent because I didn’t care for the way a lot of people were reacting to me, and the assumptions that they were making about me based on my accent.
My D can also wear the same outfit to a wedding that she can to a funeral. She’s not ever required to wear shoes that hurt. Regarding the biology, that’s true, but that’s not society’s fault, that’s Mother Nature - that’s like arguing that my son is “privileged” because he doesn’t have to spend money on feminine hygiene products. It’s a trivial example IMO.
“I can’t think of one aspect of privilege my male twin son has over his sister. Can you?”
I can think of a ton. if your son gets ahead in the workplace, he will generally be assumed to have earned it, where if your daughter, especially if she is attractive, will have rumors she ‘slept to the top’. In corporate America, there are still a lot of male managers who will promote only men. There are still private clubs that refuse to admit women, where a lot of business deals go through. In schools, teachers to this day show a bias towards boys when it comes to science and match courses, even women tend to favor boys, despite all the effort that has been made to do so. In career tracks, women executives still are concentrated in a few areas, marketing and HR being two of the big ones, and among big companies women are still not represented in numbers and there is a reason for that. Your daughter has other assumptions on her that your son probably won’t face, she likely will be the one who has to figure out how to handle career and kids, whether she goes the SAHM route or if she works, how to deal with that, it is something that most men don’t have to deal with, the assumption is the flexibility is with the women. In the sciences and tech, women are still way underrepresented, for native born women careers in tech and science are rare (most of the female tech type I run across are usually foreign born, usually from Russia/Eastern Europe, or from India and south Asia and to a certain extent, China). If your daughter gets raped, there are still a lot of people out there who will assume it was a love affair gone wrong or that somehow she ‘wanted it’ (put it this way, while I find troubling some of the reports of the ‘rape culture’ on campus, I think some of it is both way overblown and some of it is borderline rape versus later on regrets, the fact is it is going on far more than it should and that schools have done a terrible job with it, looking the other way)…
You can’t think of it in large part because you haven’t experienced it, as your daughter what she thinks in 15, 20 years.
“was privileged to befriend some classmates who were quite socially and economically privileged. What I learned is that money doesn’t necessarily shield one from profound unhappiness, and certainly not family dysfunction. In fact, two of the most miserable, and emotionally needy people I’ve ever met were family members of the founders of well known consumer product conglomerates. I sometimes suffered bouts of serious depression, and struggled with self-loathing during that time, but it was through commiserating with some of my more “privileged” friends that I think we were all able to genuinely see each other as human beings being human.”
Indeed! And that’s exactly my point. What good is served by awarding points for gender/race/SES privilege when they don’t mean anything - and these rich white girls were far less privileged than you because of dysfunctional family backgrounds?
My D attended the very college where the concept of white privilege was developed, and it was a construct used to beat rich white girls over the head that because they were rich and white, a) their lives were automatically perfect and b) their opinions weren’t as valid because nothing a rich white girl could say could possibly be authentic and c) they needed to spend the rest of their lives atoning for being rich and white (and hetero too, but that’s another story).
I’m pretty darn liberal. But at one point it was clearly a perpetual victim good construct that went far beyond the well- intentioned “appreciate what you’ve got and don’t take things for granted.”
Read Zadie Smith’s piece on code-switching for a really good explanation for why not having to develop a way of speaking or acting different from your family to fit into educated, cultured society may be considered a “privilege.”
Tina Fey’s definition of “crazy” as applied to women over forty – as in, “she’s crazy!” – gives a very accurate sense of the “privilege” your son may have over your daughter at certain stages of life. It’s too crude for me to post it here, though.
I’m personally not all that fond of questionnaires like this one, though, for many of the reasons stated. And, I’m not sure how much those two examples matter in the overall scheme of things.
Men’s dress shoes often do hurt, although they are still nowhere near as bad as some of the torture devices known as women’s shoes.
There are some situations where being male can be a disadvantage, though perhaps mainly in combination with some other characteristics. E.g. if you are young and black, there is likely a much greater risk of unfavorable attention from police if you are male than if you are female.
Musicprnt - this isn’t the 1950s where women can’t get into medical school or law school. I have worked for major companies with female CEOS including women who are routinely on Forbes and similar lists, and no one thinks that they slept their way to the top. I currently work for a woman- owned business which gives an advantage - er, privilege - in Lansing certain accounts because our clients want to give business to women owned firms.
As for the working/SAH thing, my daughter has seen that my H and I decided jointly how the house / children / etc should be run. It was most decidedly NOT “hire someone to replace what is inherently mom’s job and mom’s chores.” I hope she chooses wisely - that both kids choose wisely - and consider such things as things both people agree on, not all-to-the-woman and the-man- pitches-in. Of course, that won’t change too women insist it changes.
I assume you’ve all heard the expression, “He was born on third base, and thought he’d hit a triple.” This questionnaire is just supposed to make us think about different ways that can be true. It’s not just about being white, or male, or rich, or straight, or from an educated family, or speaking English fluently–those are examples. But, hey, put them all together, and you’ve really got a big head start.
Yes, it’s biological. But I don’t think it’s trivial.
I work in a company that employs a lot of younger people. I have seen several start families at times that were highly undesirable in terms of their finances or one or both spouses’ careers, simply because the woman’s age dictated that they couldn’t wait any longer. Couples do not have to make such decisions based on the man’s age.
Really? That “slept her way to the top” trope is still active? Not any professional workplace that I know of.
Women do not need to wear shoes that hurt. Too many women think society dictates what they should look like. Easy Spirit anyone?
musicprnt really has a lot of baggage. One example is women in tech and science, not an issue in engineering or science that I have seen. However, I would say that for both men and women, internationals sometimes have a different view of the family dynamic which makes it easier to either have family or employees take care of their kids, and that helps tremendously when balancing a career and a family.
I watched the video, and some of the questions were really weird, and seemed unrelated to “privilege”. The first five had me taking steps back or standing still.
I think a better comparison is what one thinks about when one wakes up in the morning. Do you worry about getting or keeping a job? Do you worry about having clean drinking water and enough food for today? Do you worry about your health?
The converse of the video is that, since the one woman stayed back for almost every question - does she need, or should she get, some kind of “reward” for making it so far? Is the concept of “income equality” valid, and should it be extended to “privilege equality”?
I think instead there should be a major effort for kids who are identified as low-income, and low parent education, to get extra help. The downside is that if kids are forced into programs, by the time college applications or college comes along, they are often “thrown into the pit” and have gotten SO much help that they can’t function on their own without a huge support system. It is difficult to give that “I’ll be there” mentality without giving too much help in such programs, whereas in a family, parents should be giving their children less and less help as they age, but be there if the child needs help.
Re: Catcalling is not traumatic or threatening.
Experience #1: I was walking on campus crossing the street alone at night on my way to my dorm. A car quickly approached and angled towards me and the curb. It was dark out and from the darkly tinted windows random voices started trying to get my attention, commenting on my appearance. When I didn’t respond, they yelled obscenities and the car peeled out. I was shaken up and I felt threatened.
Experience #2: I was walking on campus alone on a lit sidewalk. A man was sitting on a bench, as I got closer to I’m he told me to smile. I kept my eyes forward and didn’t respond. I heard him repeat himself louder as he stood up facing my direction. I was unsettled and I felt threatened.
To expect women to just smile and be flattered by such situations is insulting.