What is the argument FOR Dartmouth engineering? Anyone with a kid there?

College Search & Lists
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Hi everyone,

My S27 (engineering applicant, probably mechanical) has most of his college list done; he’s got several targets & likelies that he’s excited about. He’s deciding if he wants to add a couple of high reaches, and a few people have suggested Dartmouth (which would obv be a reach, but his stats are in range).

Dartmouth makes sense for him in some ways–his favorite activities are hiking/snowboarding/fishing, he loves the White Mountains, he wants to stay in New England for college. He would like a smaller school, but only has a few on his list. The NPC looks ok for us.

The argument AGAINST Dartmouth for engineering seems pretty clear to me–the 4 year engineering degree is not ABET-accredited. Students can stay for a 5th year to get an ABET degree, but financial aid for that year is not guaranteed. The program is obviously smaller, with fewer majors, than the bigger schools he is applying to.

The Dartmouth application is long & I’m trying to get a sense of how/if it’s worth it for him to give it a shot. Anyone have an argument for Dartmouth engineering?

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To me, it makes no sense - although you might ask the school, what are the career outcomes for the base engineering degree. I will tell you - many won’t hire him as many jobs seek candidates from ABET accredited schools.

So now you have expense for another year.

And let’s be honest - there’s likely a few schools (the MITs of the world) where - where you go for engineering matters

Applying to a reach for “reach” sake is more for ego - especially if the school doesn’t fit. I’m not saying it doesn’t but I’m going with your arguments, that I agree with. But it’s worthwhile to get data from them - for the four year, five year, and what are they doing. They may have higher salaries - but they may also be placing engineers into non-engineering roles.

They don’t seem to publish career outcomes - hence the need to ask.

So if his favorite activities are hiking/snowboarding/fishing, would Dartmouth be better - than say - Colorado School of Mines, which sounds like would be a safety? Or CU Boulder? Or U Arizona. Or a UC Davis? Or if he wants to be in the East, better than a Clarkson or UVM or UMass, or some of the Boston area schools for higher ranking (but not in nature). Or a Cornell or Syracuse, etc.

I don’t know the answer - or the right answer for him.

But it does seem that Dartmouth engineering comes with shortcomings - which might include the lack of traditional majors - although they have another way of getting there and do offer some types of majors that other schools don’t. Are those kids getting hired into traditional engineering roles - it’s hard to tell based on that they don’t provide career outcome info.

But I think to apply simply because it’s a reach - some want it for ego, but I don’t think it’s the right way to pick a school.

But if non-ABET works, W&L is another “reach” type school with non-ABET engineering - and certainly has the outdoorsy vibe.

Good luck.

Engineering Majors and Modified Majors | Dartmouth Engineering

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That fifth year without financial aid seems like a really expensive choice. If Dartmouth is his dream and that money doesn’t make a difference to your family situation, then ok, maybe. But if he wants an Ivy with access to snow sports, how about Cornell? I know not the same vibe, but really solid engineering.

Good luck with list building!

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Dartmouth engineering can be a good choice for a student who doesn’t need an ABET-accredited degree & values a more liberal arts academic experience. Other schools also offer non accredited degrees. For example, at MIT, Course 21E & 21S, humanities & engineering or science are non ABET-accredited even though engineering or science is contained in the degree title. The interdisciplinary approach at Dartmouth could be somewhat better as well. The student may also not thrive as well in Cornell or MIT engineering, despite what test scores and/or GPA may predict.

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My S2 went to Dartmouth, majored for four years in engineering physics as an undergrad, majored in materials science for his “fifth year,” and now works for a well-known aerospace company as a materials engineer. (He also got a masters in materials science along the way.) Because of AP credits, his fifth year was actually only one more quarter. So there’s that to consider.

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While engineering is a “pre-professional” subject, I think there are quite a few students who study it simply because they enjoy the topic. There’s a study somewhere that some large majority of engineering students don’t actually end up in engineering jobs. I think this is a pretty normal. So, the argument FOR Dartmouth engineering, like for most schools, is simply that you’d like to attend that school for all the other reasons you’d go. If you are 100% set on an engineering career and you know that up-front, then there are probably better options with ABET accreditation, etc.

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So to be very frank about the situation, I think he is sort of stumbling into the fact that New England has a kinda unusual history when it comes to engineering.

Not to get too bogged down in history, but the study of engineering as we know it started with the “modern university” model that arose in Germany, and came to the US via what became the University of Michigan. That model was then the core of what became the land grant system, and many of the great engineering powerhouses are land grant universities, or at least large flagship-equivalent publics of some sort. Others were privates founded during or after that period, but on that model, like say Stanford.

New England, though, already had a well-developed set of “classical” colleges before this all started. MIT and Cornell, however, were founded as land grant universities, even though they retained a private structure (mostly, it is complicated with Cornell). Some of the classical colleges sort of stayed evolving on that classical path, and those include some famous LACs, mostly without engineering (although not entirely). Others, though, morphed into modern universities, but the degree to which they actually did engineering was quite variable–and it continues to be a variable to this day.

OK, so then in New England, there are also public land grant universities, and they typically do have engineering, but . . . because of the existing competition from private LACs and what became private universities, there was sort of a regional attitude about the top kids not necessarily going to these public colleges. I think that has been changing, and in fact I think sometimes OOS engineering kids are also looking at some of these colleges. But still, there isn’t really anything quite like a Michigan, Illinois, Purdue, Cal, Texas, Georgia Tech, or so on in New England. That “slot” is basically filled by MIT and Cornell (I know it isn’t in New England, but still).

OK, so, what to do if you are an engineering kid who wants to be in the mountains of New England, or close, but either can’t get admitted to Cornell, or just don’t want to go?

Well, you could ignore the people who say you need to go to a super reachy college. Like, go to Vermont, New Hampshire, or UMass Amherst (if you think that is close enough) if you prefer public. Or, Clarkson, RPI, or Syracuse if you prefer private.

But you could also go to Dartmouth. As you note, though, there are some potential downsides, and I personally would not get caught up in the idea more selective = better for me when it comes to engineering (or really in general).

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While I agree with most of this post I just want to point out that Dartmouth and Cornell have very similar acceptance rates (both sub 10%). A student who doesn’t have the stats for Cornell isn’t likely to get into Dartmouth either.

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That’s a fair point, and I didn’t mean to imply Dartmouth is less selective than Cornell (or vice-versa).

The scenario I more have in mind is something like you applied ED to Cornell, and they deferred you. Now what?

You can actually then RD to Dartmouth as far as I am concerned. You might well get admitted. But is that even something you want? Maybe you continue on with Cornell now in RD, but have EA’ed UMass (I think they notify late January), and you RD RPI. Or something like that.

OK, what if you get rejected by Cornell ED? Well, I actually STILL think you can take a shot at Dartmouth in RD if you really like, stranger things have happened. But now maybe you give ED2 at RPI a close look . . . .

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You can finish the BE in 4 years, potentially, FYI. (this didn’t used to be the case).

“Many students earn the AB and BE in four years by planning ahead. Students may choose to add additional terms of study to complete the requirements for the BE, or plan early in close consultation with their academic advisor and the chair of the Department of Engineering Sciences to complete both AB and BE requirements within four years.”

I think doing it less than a whole year extra is likely much more doable for most kids if they know, for sure, they will be engineering majors and plan for it.

Not saying this is a pro- but - just pointing it out.

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A pro, would be, classes will be WAY smaller than a UMass - my kid walked out of the engineering at the Umass tour and heard discussion sections (discussion sections!) were sometimes 50-60 kids and said “not applying here!” and also was turned off by huge size of school… . Dartmouth has a deep sense of community and bond between students. If you like Dartmouth I don’t see you loving UCs or Syracuse honestly. Cornell, sure, that more tracks. Clarkson is VERY much full men, as is the WPIs/ RPIs, etc …and also nearly all engineers, which as VERY different vibe. Some DO want that though (my kids both did want all (nearly all) engineers/geeky/nerdy kids).

Tufts, U Rochester or Lehigh would be like-vibe alternatives to Dartmouth with clear 4 year paths and larger (as % of school) engineering programs..

UVM, would be a lot closer to Dartmouth, too, but their engineering program isn’t huge, either (having a kid been admitted and chose RIT as it was a more “geeky” engineering focused school and engineering felt too buried). It also had reasonable size classes and felt like engineering school felt pretty bonded since it was so small.

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Yeah, if you were actually drawn to the not-too-big, strong liberal arts and sciences college, but still with solid engineering, model, then obviously schools like RPI are going to maybe not be such a good fit.

Tufts and Rochester are indeed excellent suggestions, and Rochester for what it is worth is in a pretty nice area for outdoor recreation. And generally not short on snow.

If you are willing to go a bit farther south, then I also very much agree about Lehigh. I actually think the Lehigh Valley in general is great for combining cool outdoor stuff, cool post-industrial local cities, and then pretty quick access to NYC and Philly. Which I am mentioning because Lafayette is an LAC with robust engineering in the same area.

Bucknell is then a little more into central PA, but in its own way a very Dartmouthy college, if you will.

Point being that while we are pushing out of New England proper, it does expand your options quite a bit to go farther out into NY or PA.

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I’m guessing Dartmouth came up here by the parent (and not Cornell) given the desire to snowboard. Dartmouth is closer and a bit more North. It’s not good but Cornell isn’t that far from Greek Peak and to throw another reacher type school not far from not great snowboarding - would be Lehigh.

But I’m guessing Dartmouth was thought of based on location. Hiking and fishing could happen at many places.

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Yes, the intersection between convenient hiking/snowboarding/fishing and engineering isn’t really very limiting, when thinking nationally and being open-minded about selectivity. Reachy and in New England specifically is what is going to narrow that list way down.

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I mean, there are a number of olympic skiers that are SLOWLY making their way through Dartmouth engineering degrees, which is fun - can’t match that - lol.

And owns its own ski mountain.. lol.

(notice majors)

(I have a relative who is an alum - not an engineer though)

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To add to L_New_Wngland’s point that it is possible to complete an ABET certified degree in engineering at Dartmouth with advanced planning . . .

This process can be be made easier by the use of AP credits, or college course credits earned in high school, or by skipping foundational math/science courses in the case of an exceptional student.

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Can I just say, I so appreciate all you generous people being my sounding board. Many helpful points here.

He doesn’t really know what he wants to do for work, so it’s hard to say if he ‘needs’ an ABET-accredited degree. I’d hate to have him close that door too early, though.

Yes, I know that Cornell/MIT might not be good spaces for him, even if he got in (he may not apply to either). The ‘human-centered engineering,’ small classes, & language classes at Dartmouth are all appealing.

Thanks, that’s really useful. My kid will come in with a lot of relevant AP credits; it sounds like he should reach out to their engineering dept & find out what it actually takes to graduate with the BE in 4 years (or close to 4).

Totally agree, and he’s applying to all of the schools you list except for Syracuse. But Dartmouth intrigues him, so we’re trying to get our heads around their engineering & the pros/cons.

They would be great alternatives, but unfortunately their NPCs are not good for us. I initially wanted him to look at several PA schools. Lehigh & Lafayette have a few full-tuition merit scholarships, but they’re very competitive & he frankly doesn’t have the profile for that.

Anyway, thanks again. It sounds like Dartmouth probably doesn’t make sense for him, but worth reaching out for more details about how some students get the the ABET degree in 4 years.

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Not to throw another out but if you like Human Centered engineering and not going to be adjacent outdoorsy but BC started a major. It’s too new to apply for accreditation. But being new might provide additional enrichment opportunities to impress. I wouldn’t go there but it may be appealing given what you described academically.

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I don’t (personally) understand what schools have to hide by not putting out robust career data and D appears no different than many but here’s a little nibble.

But definitely get specifics by degree - to concentration, job, location, salary. They should have them.

Quick anecdote and this may end up being your son - and someone noted before many never work as engineers. My son works as an engineer but his second intern summer ( same company as first), his job wasn’t engineering. I asked him why they’d put him in that job and he said because they like how engineers think.

So it’s likely an engineering degree will take him places even if he doesn’t follow that career path. I’ve had sales vps, marketing and operational colleagues and more that have engineering degrees. So even if he just gets the non ABET degree, I’m guessing there will be opportunities.

If you haven’t seen it, here’s their AP table.

Good luck.

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I was just going to suggest this program, given OP’s potential interest in this approach. My kid goes to BC and their roommate is in the program (and has had good things to say about it). My understanding is the BC is in the process of applying for certification. Here is the language about accreditation from their website:

“The Human-Centered Engineering program is being designed to meet the standards of ABET, the primary accreditation agency of engineering programs in the United States. An engineering program cannot apply for ABET accreditation until after it has graduated its first class. With this in mind, we expect to apply for ABET accreditation following the graduation of the Class of 2025.”

It looks like it takes roughly 18 months to receive accreditation after applying for it, so if BC has followed this path, it could be receiving it’s accreditation sometime this academic year. But, if ABET accreditation is important @CarNu2000 should talk to the engineering department to get concrete intel on where they are in this process,

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