In addition to Dartmouth, maybe consider Brown? A bit larger than Dartmouth but Ivy & New England. Mech E is ABET for the ScB (BS) degree or he can go for an AB (BA) in ME which is a lot fewer classes and non-ABET. These options are also available for the other engineering areas as well as CS.
Also the Open Curriculum provides a lot of freedom even for an engineering major.
And not tooo far from the mountains !
I’m wondering if Case Western might not hit the right balance for your child. There aren’t big mountains near Cleveland but there is skiing and snow boarding at Boston Mills and Brandywine (less than 30 minutes away). They are small but super fun!
@CarNu2000 and @VeryHappy I checked the Dartmouth website…because I didn’t think they awarded college credit for AP courses any longer…and this is what I found.
Hoping someone will verify @Mwfan1921 ?
Dartmouth grants “credit on entrance” for qualifying Advanced Placement (AP) scores, which appears on your transcript. However, these AP credits do not count toward the 35 course credits required to graduate. Instead, high scores are used for course exemptions and placement into advanced classes
Dartmouth College stopped granting graduation credit for Advanced Placement (AP) exam scores beginning with the Class of 2018 (for students entering in the fall of 2014)
That runs counter to what I posted above that is dated this year. But it doesn’t seem grandiose. Abd buyer beware skipping class levels.
Yes, but it can allow them to skip certain foundational courses in math/science (in this case), creating space to complete the AANET program in 4 years. It’s done on a case by case basis. I’m basing this on the experience of a friend’s son.
Sorry, accidentally posted when I meant to send a DM! Please ignore!
Agree that Dartmouth won’t allow AP credits to count towards graduation requirements, the details are on the page linked below, which is accessible from the link @tsbna44 posted.
I agree with other posters who have cautioned against skipping foundational courses, with that said, each student is unique. I would encourage any student thinking they will skip a certain course to talk with a prof and even ask for access to the previous quarter’s final to help make the decision.
It all depends on how wedded he is to becoming an engineer at this moment in time. There’s an unstated or understated through-line in the Dartmouth approach that the four-year, liberal arts and science degree (the AB) should reflect a broad, reflective, academic experience that doesn’t bracket out a sizable portion of its undergraduates. Evidence of this is in the list of “partner schools” whose students Dartmouth allows to apply to the BE “fifth year” - they’re all highly regarded LACs:
Partner School Dual-Degree Program | Dartmouth Engineering
IMO the case for Dartmouth would be if: 1) the student loves everything about the school (way above and beyond every other college); 2) the student is willing to commit to the fifth year (after most friends have graduated and moved on) to get an ABET engineering degree: and 3) the family can comfortably afford the fifth year (assuming no financial aid). If those three circumstances do not all exist, I’d focus on other colleges.
If this is a student who is leaning toward engineering because they like STEM but also is very interested in the humanities, this may not be a student who really wants to be an engineer. In that case, Dartmouth could be great.
Also, it is not unusual for engineering students to do an MS in a field that is of particular interest. Is it possible to do that after 4 years with a degree from Dartmouth?
If, otoh, this student knows they want to be an engineer and has little interest in everything else Dartmouth offers except location, this might not be your best bet.
Can’t tell from this article whether a 5th year is assuredly covered by aid. It makes it seem it wasn’t but now some money has come in to make that a reality for some.
Given you have need, I’d suss that out for sure.
I really don’t get the fifth year. It’s a year of lost income. Lost 401k match. For some lost pension contribution. Lost year told soc security earnings. You don’t have a Masters degree which you can in 5 years elsewhere. . I don’t see industry clamoring for these type students.
But nonetheless, make sure your need will assuredly be met. I think so but not entirely sure after reading this.
It’s the logical conclusion, if the goal is to have all your undergraduates leave with at least one degree in common. If you can cram an extra one in there within four years - fine. Otherwise, you’ll need a fifth year. Dartmouth is all about the small college experience even though technically it’s an R1 Carnegie designated university; they were the last Ivy to let go of its LAC status.
Yes, thanks, we looked at this one. I think too new for us; would want to see student outcomes.
Brown is lovely, but unaffordable for us according to their NPC. I will check again later this fall (their NPC hasn’t been functioning well for several months).
Yes, thank you! Case is actually the only non-New England/New York school on his application list, for all the reasons you state (+ good scholarship possibilities).
I appreciate all the comments & resources about AP credits. I’ll reach out to Dartmouth about AP credits/ABET in 4 years & report back here. I’d be worried about him skipping core physics classes with his AP credits, but it looks like students can use AP to cover some of their distribution requirements (language, etc), freeing up space for the engineering classes. According to their website, 1/3 of engineering students complete the ABET degree in 4 years.
Of note, there is an engineering-specific tour at Dartmouth, I think, if possible, it is worth taking and finding out % of kids who need a full extra YEAR (vs. extra term or 2 terms)… I am not sure answer but I wonder… You could also email and see if they will tell you..
Also the video has some nice career outcomes data (though old) I suspect if you went on tour you would get the updated data…)
Starting salary 96K in 2022 for BEs, which is quite high and honestly would be a pro, if you are looking at pros..I have looked at a lot of engineering outcomes (have a 25 and 27 applying/applied for engineering ..)..
But you’d want to see what type of jobs. Given it’s Dartmouth, I’m guessing there’s some consulting, I Banking or more in there. You also have to see how they calculate it - is it base only, including expected bonuses, sign on bonus, etc.
Their last report (I put above) shows $102k but like I noted above, they don’t share roles, organizations and locations. Averages can be skewed, we don’t know the knowledge rate and yes, they should provide much further detail as many schools do, but for some reason many also don’t. So yes dig with them much further so you can compare vs the schools that do provide this info.
You asked for arguments FOR, and got a lot of arguments AGAINST.
I personally would not recommend it for financial reasons alone, but after our visit, it was clear that there were a lot of things to like.
It’s pretty, in an idyllic New England mountain location.
It has its own ski hill.
There’s a strong sense of community fostered through their house system, sort of like Rice.
Classes are small.
The biggest differentiator though is that everyone gets a broad liberal arts education through the Dartmouth Plan. It’s the only engineering program where this is a feature. Yes, ABET specifies that some coursework must be general education, but even at the LACs with engineering, Bucknell, Union, and Lafayette, the breadth pales compared to Dartmouth. The tradeoff is that it takes five years to get an ABET accredited degree.
Agree ..though I have never seen an outcome that mentioned if signing bonus is included..
(the video does list employers - or at least a long list of them) It isn’t as great as WPIs, or RITs, for example, in terms of level of data, but I have never seen anything as good as the pure engineering schools lists.
You’d need a master’s to get that level of salary at WPI, e.g. It rivals a CMU for engineer, no? That said, you are right plenty are in other industries I suppose. The video has 10 year out data that has % still in engineering (50%)
Yes but it’s not on campus. It’s about 25 mins away but yes a shuttle is offered. And it’s not free to ski although the cost is nominal. But maybe not to a student receiving aid.
Brown and the other Ivies will usually work with accepted students to match financial aid offers from their peer schools as part of a professional judgment review. Peer schools are other Ivies plus Stanford and MIT. That may have changed however with the recent financial aid lawsuit.
If your son really likes Brown it might be worth an application and a request for a professional judgement review if accepted, regardless of other Ivy offers. They will occasionally work with the families regardless to see if there was anything they missed. That’s what happened to us, although that was 6 years ago.
But we don’t know knowledge rate. Not to off track but I’ve told the story of my son at trivia night in Utah. And he found out at trivia night in a local restaurant that a Columbia grad at a neighboring company earned less than he did. Companies typically have a starting salary branded - irrelevant to where one goes. Things like location do matter though - are you in Iowa or Irvine?
My kid is 3 years out from an unrated school so he’s had three years of salary growth but is comfortably over that purported Dartmouth starting salary.
The devil is in the details. I’m always wary of those who don’t publicly post details.
Anyway, OP has lots of info to peruse and determine what’s important to them and I’m sure they’ll make the best decision for them. I just hope the school chosen is based on fit and not ego - but I hope that for all.
