@CarNu2000 – I sent you a DM.
true, that is a solid point.
I might look at the linkedin data, too (which also has its issues) Dartmouth ranks high in career outcomes (also ranks high in kids starting past 3rd base per Chetty data;)
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I think the key point is that it’s Dartmouth, not so much what field. For example, my grandson was earning $200K doing medical data analysis 2 years out from another Ivy after majoring in Evolutionary Biology as a pre-med before walking away from it to go to med school.
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Many well regarding engineering programs are not ABET accredited. For example, I majored in Electrical Engineering at Stanford, which is not ABET accredited. Yet Stanford EE is among the most highly regarded EE programs in the United States. Only ~half of engineering majors at Stanford are ABET accredited, which includes the fields where ABET tends to be more relevant, such as Civil Engineering.
However Dartmouth is different in that there isn’t an Electrical Engineering, Civil Engineering, or Mechanical Engineering major. Instead students may get a BA in Engineering Sciences. This ES major requires taking 2 intro level “gateway” courses related to particular engineering disciplines. For example, a student might take an intro to Chemical Engineering course and intro to Environmental Engineering course to complete the Engineering Sciences major.
The OP mentioned being interested in Mechanical Engineering. If the goal is to get a mechanical engineering related job, this type of degree may be detrimental towards that goal, regardless of whether the degree has ABET accreditation of not. It’s a similar idea for the Bachelor’s of Engineering degree, which Dartmouth treats as a graduate level program that usually takes 5 years to complete (a significant minority finish in 4). Alternatively a student could get a MS in desired engineering discipline at a different university after completing the BA in ES, and many students do so.
I don’t have a good argument FOR choosing Dartmouth Engineering over other alternatives. I suppose the alumni outcome surveys are decent. Engineering Science majors report similar satisfaction with their undergraduate studies and life in general as the composite among all majors. And ES majors average higher salary than most other majors. In older stats that are not inflation adjusted, the distribution of medians was as follows. If you want to complete a general engineering studies type program and aren’t sure about whether you want to work in engineering or finance/consulting, Dartmouth may be a decent option.
Computer Science – >$100k
Econ – $80-90k
Math – $80-90k
Engineering Science – $70-80k
Government – $60-70k
Psychology – $50-60k
English – $50k
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@Data10 You say this:
“The OP mentioned being interested in Mechanical Engineering.”
This would be my concern. Many jobs have requirements like this:
- ABET-accredited Bachelor’s degree in Mechanical Engineering or Architectural Engineering (with a mechanical focus)
Some will be mechanical only. Others list various disciplines.
But I think OP is good to go they’ve heard a lot 
Ps - Stanford is a name a cut above for engineering - so they are an exception to the rule but also are accredited in MechE (and CivE).
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Yes, but within the Engineering Sciences major, Dartmouth does offer a concentration in Mechanical/Operations/Systems, which is, I assume, their version of mechanical engineering? Since they seem to do a lot of things their own way, I don’t know if this is an issue of terminology or if there is a meaningful difference between this concentration and a traditional major in Mechanical Engineering. I guess to choose Dartmouth, a student buys into their overall approach with its specific emphasis on making engineering decisions with attention to how people will interact with the final product and not with just an emphasis on the technical skills needed to solve the problem.
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The degree requirements are at Engineering Sciences Major | Dartmouth Engineering , which doesn’t mention concentrations. I realize the Dartmouth website states students may concentrate in MOSE, but it’s not clear what that entails. Perhaps it involves taking a few electives in courses related to ME/OE/SE? I expect the degree is often going to be a disadvantage in employment for Mechanical Engineering related jobs compared to students who majored in Mechanical Engineering.
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Ah. My son was Class of '11.
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I don’t think anyone diminishes the value of the name. Recently a student turned down a full ride (maybe Stamps) at Ole Miss to attend. Whether I or others agreed with that, the reality is that’s why the choice was made - for the perceived name strength.
Does the name have strength vs a UMass or WPI or Case Western or others being looked at in engineering would be the question.
Case doesn’t give an average. They are like Northeastern where they show buckets and for Mech E, 27% are in the 70s (the largest bracket) and about 60% are $80K+ with a third of those in the $85-$89.9K area. WPI shows a seeking employment of near 1/7 so that’s a bit high and an average of $74.7k and a median of $76.5K. To their credit, they show an outcome rate - and it’s very high - near 100% - so they know about all their grads, not just cherry picked ones.
I think what Dartmouth has over the others is intangible - if they don’t do engineering, it’s a big name. And - the ski shuttle - no car needed - they drive you to the slopes. Few schools can say that.
Another thing to look at is class size. I know OP mentioned it. I don’t know the engineering class sizes at Dartmouth (or WPI) but we’ve read of large class sizes from parents at Case Western - but we’ve also read that they have a way of teaching that makes it work.
In the end, if one is looking for return on investment, they need to compare apples to apples and that includes cost - so that would be engineering data at one vs. another:
Anyway, OP is intrigued by the school. At the same time, they have to apply, get in, and afford it - so they can always apply and see where the chips fall. Then, of course, you have to finish - as the estimate is half don’t - but a lot of that has to do with underqualified kids not being able to handle the major - but there’s a lot of first semester “changers”.
To me, OP wants to reach but the app is long so the solution seems easy:
I’d get all my “must have” applications out of the way. If he has enough time left and he’s feeling - yep, I want to do another one, no harm in applying. If he’s burnt out and decides against, then he didn’t want it that bad.
That might be the best way to make this decision.
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That’s another reason for attending Dartmouth; no one has to declare a major until the winter term of sophomore year.
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Fair point - honestly because the concern is the application is long - many have a school like this.
Save it for last - you’ll know if you’ll want to apply or not. If it’s just too much, then you’ll know - didn’t want it that bad. On the other hand, if you’re able to put forth the effort to make it happen - then it was right to apply.
As regulars know, I am not a big fan of picking a college based on salary surveys. There is WAY too much noise in the alleged “data” for it to be at all predictive for an individual kid or even a cohort of kids. But if push comes to shove, I’d prefer it to “Trivia night anecdotes”, all things being equal.
However- there ARE ways of sussing out employment prospects. If a U has a specific engineering career fair which is open to non-engineers- that’s a great sign. That means that engineers, physics majors, chem majors, applied math majors, urban planning majors are interviewing with companies who specifically want quant-qualified students with a broad ranges of skills, and they understand the difference between an ABET accredited program and one that is not- and likely don’t care.
There are GOBS of engineering grads who end up in non-engineering roles-- and I’m not even discussing the hedge fund/finance roles. Industrial companies which hire for rotational programs for new grads- SOME of the team members will be engineers. Some will be finance majors. Some will be psych or English majors. Some will be chem or logistics majors. That’s why there are teams. Lots of different skills. A pharma company isn’t just looking for potential bench scientists and bio majors. They need people who can work in logistics and supply chain (getting finished goods from production to distribution- with appropriate temperature control). They need people who track legislation and can explain to management the potential impact of seemingly irrelevant laws (we are seeing this big time with tariffs- there are raw material shortages of ingredients that people did not fully understand- either the point of origin, or the “way station” where a raw ingredient is processed). They need people who work with epidemiologists tracking and predicting disease outbreaks and creating production models which can ramp up and down at hot spots.
I’ve seen engineers hired into all of these roles- as well as folks with other educational backgrounds-- and most of these are not “ABET Engineering” roles since they can be performed by professionals with a range of training/majors/background.
I think the one “risky” discipline in engineering is civil. Civil engineers work in all kinds of places doing all kinds of things- but the first and second jobs are often roles which have a hard ABET requirement. So that’s a hurdle that some programs just cannot overcome. Are their grads employed? Of course. But it’s a lot easier to launch from one group of programs vs. the others.
Disclaimer- I have never hired a Dartmouth grad with a 5 year degree (I don’t think…). But I’ve hired from 3/2 programs of all stripes, when I worked in aerospace we hired both ABET and non in electrical, mechanical, etc. I think the positive of a program like Dartmouth’s is the exploratory option, and the reality that most technical disciplines these days are increasingly inter-disciplinary. A company is developing robotic limbs for accident victims and wounded military? You need cog scientists and materials scientists and computer scientists and mechanical engineers and bio majors and graphic designers and PT’s… etc. And even when everyone has their own deliverables on the team, hiring people who have stepped out of their box in college is already a “tip” factor.
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It’s VERY important that this not be interpreted as ABET accreditation is not important. A power house that elects to not be accredited or to let it lapse, is WAY different than a program that can’t get it.
Cal Poly actually offers a similar degree, Liberal Arts Engineering. It’s also not ABET accredited. Like Dartmouth and unlike Stanford, it’s because the curriculum is light on technical coursework.
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The importance varies depending on many factors. For example, a key reason why ABET is important for Civil Engineering is because a PE license is often important, and the most direct way to obtain such a license involves graduating from a ABET accredited Civil Engineering program and passing the PE exam. It’s possible to obtain the license with out ABET, but there are extra hurdles. This is far less relevant for many other engineering majors, such as the discussed Engineering Sciences major at Dartmouth.
Another key reason is using is providing evidence of standardized and known coursework for employers. If an employer sees the applicant graduated from an ABET Mechanical Engineering program, he/she knows that the applicant took the standard ABET courses for ME such as solid mechanics, material science, thermal sciences, systems & controls, calculus, etc. Again this is less relevant for a Engineering Sciences major at Dartmouth applying to a Mechanical Engineering related job. Seeing that the applicant graduated from an ABET Engineering Sciences program doesn’t show that the applicant took the employer desired ME coursework.
Another key reason is a general employer screening criteria, particularly if the college is not well known to the employer. In many cases, engineering employers are not focused on a particular college name. Instead ABET accredited can be enough. This becomes less important for colleges like Stanford and to a lesser extent Dartmouth, where the employers likely are familiar with the college.
I could continue, but the point is the importance varies. ABET can absolutely be important in particular circumstances, such as a Civil Engineering major who hopes to obtain a PE license or a graduate from a lesser known Mechanical Engineering program hoping to boost his employment prospects for ME related jobs. However, this is quite different from saying that it’s important that Dartmouth’s Engineering Sciences major be ABET accredited or all engineering students should choose an ABET accredited program.
Stanford chose not to offer ABET for Electrical Engineering (and various other engineering majors) because they felt the highly structured ABET requirements were too limiting. Stanford wanted to offer a greater variety of course options to students and give students the opportunity to take a larger number of electives and/or courses outside of major. ABET is less important for Stanford EE, as PE licensing is less relevant, and Stanford is well known to typical employers. Caltech and numerous others take a similar position with some engineering majors ABET (only 1 major is ABET at Caltech), and others non-ABET. Among colleges I am familiar with, it’s quite rare for an Engineering Sciences type major to be ABET accredited, so I’m not surprised that Dartmouth’s program isn’t ABET.
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My point is that one shouldn’t look at schools that have yet to receive ABET accreditation or that have lost ABET accreditation and conclude it’s no big deal because Stanford and Caltech have programs that aren’t ABET accredited.
It’s like English or painting. When you’ve proven you know the rules really well, you are then allowed to break them.
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That wasn’t what my post said. My post instead said that the importance of ABET accreditation varies depending on many factors, including the particular major. There are reasons why ABET might be important or not important besides just how well known or not well known the college or engineering program is.
Dartmouth offers a non-ABET Engineering Sciences major, and my point was that ABET accreditation in this major at Dartmouth is less important for the reasons stated in my post. Not getting ABET accreditation is extremely common for Engineering Science(s) majors. Only 9 colleges in the US offer an ABET accredited engineering science(s) major – a minuscule portion. The 9 that are ABET accredited don’t follow an obvious (to me) pattern. Harvard has ABET. Yale does not. The SUNY system has ABET. The UC system does not. It’s a low percentage because ABET accreditation is often less important for Engineering Sciences majors.
In contrast, ~85% of colleges offering majors for which ABET accreditation tends to be more important offer an option for ABET accreditation in that major. The overwhelming majority offer ABET at both well known colleges / engineering programs and lesser known engineering colleges / engineering programs. This also applies to colleges like Stanford and Caltech, which are ABET accredited in Mechanical and Civil (Caltech combines them in single major).
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But the category has more than 150 schools - Engineering Science, Engineering Physics, General Engineering, etc. I’m sure they’re made to be substitutional.
You’ve got everyone from Harvard, Dartmouth and MIT to Frostburg and Indiana State - accredited in the major.
It sounds like if OP went to Dartmouth, they’d pursue the ABET accredited degree.
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ABSOLUTELY! AND, that should not be confused with fully technical degrees from Stanford and Caltech that are not ABET accredited.
I’m harping on this because it comes up regularly. Posters need to know that the jobs they will be competitive for with a 4 year non-ABET accredited degree from Dartmouth are not the same as the jobs that Stanford EEs will be competitive for. They are different, but too often confused as equal.
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I posted an article about this before and missed that you said this is your first message.
I’d imagine this is reason enough to not apply - before looking at anything else.
What if you attend, go through your four years, and boom - you can’t afford the excess.
The article I put showed they are making strides on this - but that’s a lot of risk. So now you are losing income and paying more.
With more than half the kids at Dartmouth full pay, let’s be honest - it’s a school for the wealthy - and given the need blind admissions, it’s ok to go - but this reason alone for a potential engineer is reason to stay away - unless you can afford one year at full pay.
I’d generally agree, but it’s not just a function of ABET vs non-ABET. Engineering Sciences is a different major from Electrical Engineering, with a very different list of course requirements, as well as different focuses and goals. Graduates from the respective majors often pursue different types of jobs, have different types of employers attending career fairs, etc. Had Dartmouth obtained ABET accreditation in their Engineering Sciences major, I doubt typical grads would be applying to and competitive for the same jobs as Stanford EEs. Even if they did get to the interview stage for an EE type job, tech interviews would be challenging without having taken relevant EE classes.
As one would expect, recent Dartmouth Engineering Sciences grads often do work in non-engineering sectors, in positions that are less common among EEs, MEs, and similar. Among recent (<5 years) engineering sciences grads at Dartmouth, the most common employment sectors were as follows.
Education – 33
Consulting – 26
Finance – 23
Tech + Engineering – 19
Health – 13
Among Bachelor of Engineering, the tech/engineering portion increased relative to finance/consulting, but still remained a small minority. The high education portion seems to primarily relate to recent graduates working for Dartmouth.
Education – 52
Tech + Engineering – 22
Finance – 18
Manufacturing – 17
Consumer Goods – 16
Consulting – 13