<p>“I actually wonder if - since making alcohol illegal years and years ago didn’t work”…</p>
<p>But it did, hugely! In virtually every area. Youth drinking-related motor vehicle deaths, injuries, and accidents, youth heavy drinking, youth bingeing all down over the past two decades. Per capita alcohol consumption is at an all-time low. </p>
<p>“For another thing, it seems that students (and everyone else) would simply step off campus for their fill of alcohol, and, in at least one small town, they’d have 90 shopping choices.”</p>
<p>Yup. Oklahoma (and now Georgia) have experienced this difficulty. But one has to make an active decision to do so, and expend the necessary energy. It has cut binge drinking rates almost in half; more importantly from a longer term health perspective, it has likely substantially impacted the heavy drinking rate. We’ll have to wait a couple of years for complete data.</p>
<p>(Note: this is not my favorite approach, but I can’t deny that it seems to be working.)</p>
<p>latetoschool- I personally find many alcoholic beverages quite tasty. I prefer beer, wine and margaritas and don’t enjoy the taste of martinis or whiskey.
I don’t condemn people who enjoy whiskey or martinis, however, and wouldn’t ban them from my table. There isn’t much better than having beer and pizza with a few friends or co-workers. It is enjoyable. I guess my problem with your condemnation is that you can’t even comprehend how anyone could find an activity that involves alcohol, even a business dinner, enjoyable or productive. I completely disagree with comparing drinking to smoking tobacco products. Smoking is much more detrimental to one’s health and that of anyone in the vicinity than is drinking in moderation. I don’t allow smoking in my house, at my table or in my presence. This is because I can smell it and the odor remains on my clothes. If someone could inhale the smoke without it affecting me, they would be welcome to indulge in this vice in my presence.
My church serves wine at the Eucharist. I guess the Catholic, Episcopal and Lutheran churches are on your $h1t list!<br>
I was a competitive runner for many years. There was nothing we enjoyed more than going out with our running friends for a couple of beers. We led a healthy lifestyle, ate fairly appropriately for our age and activity level, and sure didn’t feel that we were the dregs of society for drinking socially.
I hope my kids approach alcohol the same way.</p>
<p>In the case of State College, the administration has to work with the community. I intend to write the President, Graham Spanier, a letter about this subject. I have to wonder: if a parent of every undergraduate at that school wrote a letter, would they do something?</p>
<p>I’ve found your take on alcohol interesting, lts, because I actually like the taste of it. I could drink straight shots and actually enjoy the taste–of any adult beverage (except beer, which I think I’ve outgrown). Of course, my kids don’t know this. However, I do not enjoy being drunk. I usually stop at one or two drinks if I’m out, because I don’t even enjoy the slight feeling of being out of control I get at three drinks. I can count the number of times I was drunk, including my college days, on one hand. My kids have never seen me drunk, although they have seen me drink, obviously. I usually have a glass or two of wine a day. My husband drinks a beer occasionally.</p>
<p>Also, I don’t drive after even one drink. My kids have heard me make a big deal out of this fact after each time they’ve seen me have a drink at a restaurant.</p>
<p>I get the drinking, what I don’t get is why the goal of so many kids today is to be totally, out-of-their-mind, smashed. If nothing else, my pride would keep me from reaching that state. That is what concerns me–why are kids so interested in reaching such a state of oblivion?</p>
<p>MomofWildChild, I don’t condemn people who drink, or, for that matter, those who smoke, use drugs, etc. I just do not associate with them. I do NOT date gentlemen who drink, under any circumstances - it’s a turnoff. </p>
<p>Cigarettes are forbidden in my house; alcohol is not, however. It’s normal for guests of guests to bring over a bottle of wine if we’re having a dinner party, etc., and when they do, I just have someone open it up, and those who drink, drink it. And I am at mass nearly every Sunday, and most holy days, and yes, wine is served (but I don’t drink it). But then, I hardly think you can equate wine served in church with, well, drinking. </p>
<p>If you like the taste of it, great. You’re almost certainly in the majority, and, actually, your description sounds sort of like how my daughter engages it. But I still don’t like it.</p>
<p>I think I did taste a margarita once - that’s the drink that comes with salt all over the rim of the glass, right? Anyway - tasted like a salt mine, plus lemon pledge mixed in. Spectacularly horrifying taste. Can’t imagine why everyone seems to like it…</p>
<p>And what’s with the salt? Seems like it would work out better if they used pepper instead…</p>
<p>Not associating with a class of people sounds like condemnation to me! I tend to be fairly good at interpreting the written word, and your posts convey to me an attitude of equating social drinkers with convicted murderers or animal abusers.<br>
Hereshoping- care to join me for some Margaritas and Mexican food?</p>
<p>^ You mean altar SERVERs, right? For years, our church didn’t serve wine at mass. D was an altar server, all the way through high school. Then the priest changed, and the new priest started serving wine. My guess is that had wine been available when she was serving, she’d have been in the back room with the boyz, checking it out. </p>
<p>Out of curiousity, I do watch who drinks the wine, and who doesn’t. It looks like about one of every 10 parishioners drink the wine. </p>
<p>MomofWC, I don’t treat people who drink any differently, with the exception that I tend to not encourage those relationships. If a guest arrives at my home with cigarettes, they’re directed outside. If they arrive with drugs - hasn’t happened yet - but if they did - they’d be arrested. If they arrive with alcohol (this happens usually when it’s the date of a guest) - they’re welcomed and honored just like all the other guests; they’re thanked profusely for their alcoholic gift, and that gift WILL be promptly consumed - just not by me. </p>
<p>I don’t like alcohol, don’t care to be in the company of people who use it, or businesses where it is sold. But, I did buy a bottle of wine as a dinner gift a few months ago - I’m into getting people what THEY want for their audiences, not what I approve of - and that was a VERY pleasant experience, because, um, they carded me, and, I’m like, 47. so I guess something good can come from just about anything.</p>
<p>The state and local community already have the laws on the books about purchasing/serving alcohol. The penalties are also part of the laws. Enforcement of these laws are done by local and state police and liquor control board. We have also enacted a law that states you are a responsible adult at age 18 and you may not buy/consume alcohol until age 21. These are the laws complete with penalties for breaking them.</p>
<p>Colleges are there to educate people who choose to pay tuition and enroll. This is their job. There job is not enforcement of state and local alcohol laws however they are expected to honor these laws like everyone else. </p>
<p>Now, I think the most difficult law to enforce is the one about supplying alcohol to a minor by someone willing to purchase it for them. This is done, not at a bar or establishment but in someones home or at a party in someones home. Very hard to catch unless something else happens (death, accident, fights) that brings attention to it. </p>
<p>So I guess (always open for rethinking) I believe that we just need alot more police in a high density area if a problem is out of hand. Colleges should pay their fair share of the taxes in this environment.</p>
<p>I will say at Penn State 5/30 of sons friends were written up for underage use within the first 60 days and all lost their licenses for 90 days along with fines and mandatory alcoholism classes. Very adult treatment…no slap on the hand.</p>
<p>Okay…I’m ready for the attack. Well, maybe I’ll open a bottle of white zin while I wait.</p>
<p>MomofWildChild, your parish is likely very different from ours - ours is very working class, working poor even, and many, if not most, without health care and certainly most have been without dental care for a VERY long time, if they even ever had any. So alcohol aside, the Mint couldn’t print enough money to convince me to take a sip behind some of them. I know that sounds truly awful, horrible, but, that’s where I am. Plus, the parish was without wine for years, until the new priest arrived, and changed many, many things. Including buying a ridiculously expensive organ when so many in the parish cannot even pay their utility bills, or make their money stretch to have food until the end of the month, but, that’s another story. Point is the parishioners simply had not been served wine at mass for years, if ever, and they aren’t a progressive group, so it doesn’t surprise me that so few of them drink any of it. </p>
<p>On the other hand, my daughter doesn’t miss an opportunity to line up for the wine. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if she doesn’t sneak back in line for a second gulp, while I’m distracted in hail marys or something. She actually has tried most of the catholic churches in her college city, and has reported back doesn’t like this one, doesn’t like that one. I suspected at first it was because she is used to and very comfortable with the capuchin franciscan parish she was raised in, and these are diocesan parishes. But now I’m thinking it’s the brand and quantity of wine served. LOL.</p>
<p>MOWC: Of course: I like margaritas too, but only if they’re not too sickly sweet. I like to taste the tequila ;), which brings me to another subject: the marketing of all these coolers and sweetened drinks which are obviously targeted to kids. In our local liquor store, we have a display of little pastel pocketbook type things which contain little wine coolers (targeted to teenaged girls–who else?). I get really angry everytime I see that display. It’s unconscionable that the liquor industry would go out of their way to target young girls. It’s natural for kids not to like the taste of alcohol, so there’s only one reason to drink these drinks: to get buzzed at best, or drunk at worst.</p>
<p>As for PSU, they’re not doing enough. My son (a non-drinker) is disgusted with the drinking there, although he loves the school. He knows a lot of kids there from his high school, though, which provides him with sort of a buffer for meeting people. I’d be really worried about a freshman kid going there who didn’t know anyone. I would think the pressure to drink in that case might be tremendous.</p>
<p>sax - my son is at Penn State and I agree with you that they are trying make a dent in the drinking culture. The key word is trying -I think it’s very hard to turn this around. A few of my sons friends also got citations in the first few weeks. Drinking is NOT allowed in the dorms and has been enforced. And my son reports that he doesn’t evey try to get in the bars since fake IDs don’t work and they are very strict about who they let in. The drinking goes on at apartment parties (off campus) and frats. Bars are popular for the 21+ kids (lots of them on a campus this size). However, kids are NOT punished if they go to the hospital for alcohol poisoning (a good thing I think). Big state universities like PSU and Colorado State most definately have a big binge drinking population - but the large student body also helps for those who want to find non-drinker friends. I think that’s much harder for non-drinkers in a smaller school like Williams, Duke, Dartmouth or Washington and Lee. One of my friends told me that her children would never be allowed to go to PSU due to the huge party culture, but then sent one of her children to one of the above mentioned schools. She reported that the admin said they had a drinking problem 20 years ago - but the problem is now fixed. Right. I heard that line from other schools too - like Lehigh (where the drinking culture is obviously VERY strong). There are many schools that are struggling with this problem. Some admit it. Some try to gloss over it so not to scare away the parents. Buyer beware…go in with your eyes open.</p>
<p>Do you have a religious objection to consuming alcohol?</p>
<p>Drunkenness bothers me tremendously. If you never have more than two over the course of an evening, though, it’s extremely unlikely that there will be any negative consequences (except for a few extra calories if you would otherwise have been drinking club soda). There are pretty good data that a few drinks a week can be beneficial to health, especially if you’re drinking red wine.</p>
<p>I’m sure genetics play a role, but I lean toward the view that the way the French and Jews introduce their children to alcohol (no big deal, share some wine with your family, especially on holidays) is one reason that teenagers in those groups don’t do quite as much over-the-top bingeing. Drinking till you vomit or pass out would be considered extremely gauche in France.</p>
<p>Re legalization: I’ve been the sober person at drinking parties and pot parties more times than I can count, and if pot weren’t criminal, I’d MUCH prefer my children to be using pot/partying with pot users. The violence factor alone would be enough to tip the balance for me.</p>
Sorry - I’ll admit that it’s been >35 years since I went to church (Catholic). Back then it was altar ‘boys’, lots of kneeling and standing, the mass was in Latin, the priests were male, and there was nobody playing guitars, etc. No doubt things have changed a bit. And at least back then, the only person drinking wine, other than the boyz in the back, was the priest - the congregation didn’t get to partake.</p>
<p>ummm…I really don’t think so. Just the opposite, from what I’ve heard. Kids who really want to get away from the drinking get their own apartments. Who is there to “police” the dorms, RA’s? A joke.</p>
<p>“I’m sure genetics play a role, but I lean toward the view that the way the French and Jews introduce their children to alcohol (no big deal, share some wine with your family, especially on holidays) is one reason that teenagers in those groups don’t do quite as much over-the-top bingeing. Drinking till you vomit or pass out would be considered extremely gauche in France.”</p>
<p>It does seem to lower rates of over-the-top bingeing. However, rates of alcoholism, liver cancer, and cirrhosis are much higher in France than they are in the U.S. And when you factor out the North African population, much higher still. The early drinking thing is an abject failure in France when it comes to adult impacts (and the relationship between early drinking among youth and adult problem drinking even more emphatically clear.)</p>
<p>Hanna, I have no religious objection to alcohol. I just don’t like it - not in any way, shape, or form. I do agree re marijuana - I think the stuff should be legalized. I don’t like that either, but, for some reason, it doesn’t seem to have quite the same “ick” factor as alcohol. </p>
<p>I don’t know what the answer is, but, if I could wave a magic wand, no young person would ever get themselves drunk. I don’t think colleges have a prayer of curbing drinking - it seems they are overwhelmed as it is with all the issues that colleges are supposed to be about in the first place. I don’t think making alcohol illegal quite works either - the 90 estabishments hereshoping references - that represents a significant number of people earning a living, and feeding the tax base, and I’m sure the majority of their clientele are NOT underage, but rather are adults who are drinking responsibly - or at least I sincerely hope so. And I don’t think that following the methods of Europe quite work either, for all the reasons Mini sites, which I believe are true. Perhaps it’s simply hopeless and the best anyone can hope for is setting the best possible example at home, send a consistent message in word and deed, hope it sticks, and always keep the lines of communication open. </p>
<p>ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad - LOL! The church has changed quite a bit. D is a eucharistic minister, and she told me that if she is serving the host, and someone should drop a piece of it on the floor - even if it falls out of their mouth for some reason - even if it’s half ingested - EVEN IF (you can sorta fill in the blanks here) - she is required to collect it up off the floor, and consume it herself. So I’ve decided that there is such a thing as entirely too much information where our children are concerned; there are some things I just stone cold would rather not ever know anything about - and - what my child might decide to do in church is right at the very top of the list.</p>
<p>hereshoping - hmmm, my son is in an honors dorm so maybe it’s different there - just a guess. By the way, the kid who fell out the dorm window last year was trying to escape the RA and police who were busting up a party. The kids my son knows who got citations were drinking in dorms. In any case, my son does say that the East dorms are REALLY wild. Regarding apartments, he tells me thats where the most of the parties are. Apparently, there’s a trend - freshman go to frat parties, sophs and juniors to apartment parties and seniors go to bars. Yes, there’s way too much drinking. But a student’s experience probably varies based on living arrangements ( we know of a girl in the Arts/Theatre dorm and she loves it - very little vomiting and crude behavior to be seen there). If your son wants to move off campus and doesn’t drink - go far away from the State College downtown area. We know quite a few upper classman in the close-in downtown apartments and it’s apparently a wild scene.<br>
Do you have specific recommendations for what Penn State (and hundreds of other colleges) should do? I would be happy to write but it seems like this is a very tough nut to crack. And it’s not just PSU - we visited Lehigh (another possibility for my son) on a weekend evening and I couldn’t believe what I saw. We have a friend with a daughter at NYU and she is fed up with the crazy drinking. UDEL had a alcohol poisoning death this fall. This is an epidemic…</p>
<p>Seems to me like these kids have come of age in “the culture of the extreme”. Nothing is good enough unless it is over the top, dangerous,and totally intense. It has been marketed to these kids for the last 5 years and I think this has been a part of what seems to be an explosion of extreme or binge drinking.</p>
<p>Toneranger…I agree that it is just not Penn State. My sons friends talk about the same culture at their private schools. I think because Penn State is so large that the problem seems larger. I’m glad your son feels that it is not just ignored and that there are visible consequences.</p>
<p>My son is part of a research study Penn State is doing on this years freshman class…it seems to be targeted for atheletes and is about alcohol consumption and patterns throughout the year. I believe they know that this is a major problem and they are trying to figure out how to fix.</p>
<p>But again it all comes full circle to personal responsibility and hoping that your kid has enough brains and luck to make it through the whole thing in one piece.</p>
However, I do not enjoy being drunk. I usually stop at one or two drinks if I’m out, because I don’t even enjoy the slight feeling of being out of control I get at three drinks. I can count the number of times I was drunk, including my college days, on one hand. My kids have never seen me drunk, although they have seen me drink, obviously. I usually have a glass or two of wine a day. My husband drinks a beer occasionally.</p>
so I guess something good can come from just about anything.</p>