What is your attitude toward underage drinking?

Allmusic · November 2, 2006, 10:29am

It was an inference, HH, and I must join you in the work brigade. :p

lealdragon · November 2, 2006, 11:34am

"The only purpose of using pot is to get high, which is not the only purpose of enjoying a drink.

The difference is clear."

??? What do you mean by that? Why else do people drink?

They drink for the following reasons:

To get high.

To relax.

To get in a romantic mood - loosen inhibitions.

To fit in socially.

ALL of those apply to pot smoking as well. It is quite a social bonding thing, just like alcohol.

<hr>

Edit: Ok, I just read where you explained about the taste. OK, pot smoke doesn’t exactly taste good.

But, that is really irrelevant. How is enjoying the delicious taste of wine any different from enjoying the delicious sound of music while high? They are both physical sensations of enjoyment.

Once again, for the record, I am NOT intending to defend pot. I know people in their 40s and 50s who still smoke pot and generally I think they are using it as an emotional escape. I think ANY crutch is not good.

And, pot DOES make people stupid. Most definitely!!! Why on earth would anyone want to be stupid and apathetic?

However, compare ‘stupid and apathetic’ to ‘driving drunk and killing people, dying from liver disease, being susceptible to getting raped, increased chance of violent nature rising to the surface…etc.’

My point is simply that if you compare them side by side, and take into consideration all the deaths from violence and car accidents, not to mention liver disease, pot is relatively benign in comparison. It is the lesser of the evils. Still ‘evil’ so to speak. But lesser.

lealdragon · November 2, 2006, 11:46am

from the site:

“…parents should arm themselves with information from credible sources and send a strong message to kids: Marijuana is illegal, unhealthy and could very well be a gateway to other drugs.”

I would also add:

“…parents should arm themselves with information from credible sources and send a strong message to kids: alcohol is legal, just like cigarettes, unhealthy and could very well be a gateway to being an alcoholic, destroying your family, dying of liver disease, and drastically increase the chances of dying in a car accident.”

It’s hypocritical for parents to criticize their kids’ pot smoking when they drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes themselves. If parents want to keep their kids away from drugs, they should start with example rather than lecture.

mini · November 2, 2006, 12:15pm

Folks have used mind-altering substances to change their consciousness since time immemorial. I think the idea that folks will stop doing so now, for whatever reason, is anthropologically unsound.

However, rampant alcohol use arose in city-states during the Renaissance to deal with the fact that drinking from the water supply was more immediately deadly. Not that alcohol wasn’t - though death took longer. In 16th century England, it is thought that as much as 80% of the population died from diseases and conditions related to alcohol use (with most men dying in their 30s.) The separate legal status of alcohol has its historical roots in cultures where it was used as an alternative to water, not from acceptance of its mind-altering potential. In cultures where either water was better protected or, alternatively, there were liquid alternatives to water for many (such as North Africa and the Middle East), alcohol never attained the normative status it has in western Europe (and, later, America.)

Alcohol is the second leading cause of preventable death in the U.S. (drugs don’t make the top 10). The idea that colleges can by decree make campuses dry, within the context of this culture, is an absurdity. BUT, by the same token, and knowing what they do about alcohol as a cause of death, not to address heavy alcohol use on campus is an abnegation of educational responsibility.

As far as state universities go, if I were king I’d tie state funds to binge drinking rates, and leave it to the educators to figure out how best to go about it. Reward those who do well, reduce funding for those who don’t.

As for the private colleges, it’s three years ago now, but we saw really significant differences college-to-college (my d. always did Thursday overnights) among LACs that were ostensibly similar. I think the best way to get them to deal with this stuff (short of folks dying, which the Dean at Williams has said), is to shame them publicly. Name names, and tell folks what you witnessed.

You can start on College Confidential.

barrons · November 2, 2006, 1:08pm

There is no such thing as preventable death that I know of. There are just different reasons and times for death. Moderate alcohol use may extend life while heavy use might shorten it but we all go sometime.

mini · November 2, 2006, 1:24pm

More from my alma mater:

<a href=“WRAPS organizes campus-wide food drive, adapts to COVID restrictions – The Williams Record”>WRAPS organizes campus-wide food drive, adapts to COVID restrictions – The Williams Record;

scansmom · November 2, 2006, 1:32pm

barrons: please read in context. We are talking cause and effect here, eg, instances where alcohol CAUSES death (not, just speeds it up or slows it down). Preventable only distinguishes these as deaths that could have been prevented (for instance, by acts within the individual’s control) as opposed to deaths that could not be prevented by the individual (for instance, deaths caused by certain cancers or illnesses with no known causes). Moderate alcohol use obviously does not normally even cause death, and nobody is trying to say otherwise.

toneranger · November 2, 2006, 3:09pm

mini- just wondering what you think of this statement from the Princeton review on Williams -
" The dictum “drinking is a way of life” is backed by the administration’s attitude of being “concerned with students’ health and safety rather than busting people for alcohol.”
Dartmouth also had a recent incident where multiple sorority girls were admitted to the hospital for alchohol poisoning (after their friends called 911) and the students pointed out that lives were likely saved because there was no fear of punishment. So, I agree that schools need to try approach to combat binge drinking - but what do you suggest? I can see that heavily punitive approaches can sometimes backfire.
I was particulary interested in what I saw at Lehigh. I know they have tried very hard to reduce drinking over the past few years (more arrests, etc) but what I saw on a weekend night last fall tells me their approaches are NOT working.

Allmusic · November 2, 2006, 3:16pm

Thanks Barrons, but I would rather not be on the other end of an DWI by the “heavy user”. Maybe it’s that person’s time to go, but it isn’t mine, and I don’t want my life shortened by someone else’s stupidity.

barrons · November 2, 2006, 3:27pm

Then don’t drive at all–I avoid driving much at night myself. Seriously, IMHO drunk driving is far worse than being a drunk and that’s why it is a criminal offense and I support that. I’m just not ready to join the Carry Nation crowd yet and I think some of these problems are overblown and extrapolated to indicate more damage than is accurate. Same for the marijuana as a gateway drug. Yes most druggies probably started out with it but many more used it for fun and did not go on to a life of drug use. It’s like saying beer or wine causes alcoholism.

mini · November 2, 2006, 4:46pm

“” The dictum “drinking is a way of life” is backed by the administration’s attitude of being “concerned with students’ health and safety rather than busting people for alcohol.”

I saw little evidence of either. However, they have just spent $5.2 million dollars to revamp their entire living and social system, at least partially on the assumption that if they could just dilute the clumps of “anti-socials”, the problem might go away. However, their own data suggest that is way more than just a couple of clumps, and it might have the opposite effect. We’ll see.

But they are concerned. They have continued incidences of feces spreading, folks taking craps out windows, property destruction, one near-murderous assault last year, and a very, very high heavy drinking rate (nearly 30% of all students, and much higher than that among white males.) The concern with students’ health and safety was expressed by their closing their night-time infirmary admissions because they could no longer find physicians willing to take on the liability of treating students with alcohol poisoning. Now, closing such centers is not particular odd, but Williamstown is a little different, as the nearest hospital is some six miles away over frozen, snow-blown roads.

The dean says it will all change when (she said “when”, not “if”) there is the first death.

Dartmouth’s “good Samaritan” provisions are all well and good, but not particularly progressive. There are other schools, like Pomona, where a student is subject to disciplinary action if they do NOT call 911 under such circumstances.

mathmom · November 2, 2006, 4:55pm

“There are other schools, like Pomona, where a student is subject to disciplinary action if they do NOT call 911 under such circumstances”

Sounds good to me.

I can’t believe Williams has a feces problem. :(

hereshoping · November 2, 2006, 4:56pm

The JAMA study was about adolescents. I believe the point was that the earlier kids start smoking marijuana the more likely they are to move on to harder drugs. Interestingly, that has also been mini’s point about alcohol use-- the earlier the age of use the more likely the kid will become an alcoholic later in life. In this way, marijuana can be called a “gateway drug” as EARLY alcohol use could be called a “gateway” to alcoholism. This is why wine coolers and all these sweetened drink concoctions targeted to teens (especially girls) drive me nuts. I think it benefits kids greatly if they can avoid drinking entirely until they’re twenty-one, whether or not it’s legal.

mini · November 2, 2006, 5:07pm

“I can’t believe Williams has a feces problem. :(”

"Echoing the larger trend, Miles was pleased to find that Homecoming events in dorms this year produced few damages and that Buildings and Grounds (B&G) did not have to schedule overtime to do party clean-up, a significant change from what is normally one of the costlier weekends of the year. Two cases of defecation into a sink in academic buildings were the most problematic effects of the celebration, she said. "

This is just the tip of the feces-spreading iceberg. There seem to be three groups (as reported in the Record): those who defecate into sinks and in hallways, those that spread it on walls, and those who “bomb” from windows. Only among the third group is it said to be known to be a coed activity

Let’s not make this a Williams thing, though; remember, last year we had the Princeton vomit eaters.

golani89 · November 2, 2006, 5:20pm

How many times a day do you think people have a drink of alcohol, and how many times does that lead to something bad? You would be surprised with how low that number is, how many times people smoke weed tho and have something bad happen to them. Smoking marijuana, medically, is far worse for you than drinking alcohol. Just because someone drives drunk is not an excuse to ban the drink itself, whereas people who smoke weed are really hurting themselves emotionally, mentally, physically, and their own future with every puff

OpiefromMayberry · November 2, 2006, 6:08pm

“I can’t believe Williams has a feces problem”

Try it in a mircowave… they had to actually call in a hazmat team for clean up at my son’s college.

Home coming skits involved alot of baby ruth bars on plates near microwaves.

latetoschool · November 2, 2006, 9:08pm

Golani89, there are quite a few incalculable “soft costs” of drinking. I received a call from a headhunter today for a global position. I’m not qualified plus not interested, so, I referred a reasonable candidate who I know does NOT drink, at least never in public. I intentionally DID NOT refer a far stronger candidate with very powerful credentials who actually needs a job, who I have personally observed drinking in public - never more than a glass or two of whatever - and once it gets in her system, she gossips stuff that should just simply never be repeated. Never does it sober - only when she has a drink - or two. I didn’t refer her to the headhunter because I don’t want my good name and reputation aligned with that sort of behavior.

It’s easy to observe in business: you can go to an event, and watch the drinkers. Everyone starts out clean, polite, respectable. First drink in, things start to change a little bit. Ties get twisted, men start getting just a bit louder, women get a bit looser than they ordinarily would risk. Second or third drink in, it’s really quite pitiful and painful to watch. Behavior changes in ways that just isn’t appropriate. And I usually leave long before the hard core drinkers finish their last. I know of NO ONE who is able to maintain their elegance and poise during drinking.

How does that hurt anyone? Well, for one, when I observe such behavior, I form judgments, and make final decisions about people. And when a business opportunity comes along, guess who I do NOT call? Oh, I’m always unfailingly polite, gracious and kind to the drinkers. But they get ostracized. They’ll never know it of course. The woman who I did not refer for the job will never, ever find out about it. But if she does? I’ll be straight, and tell her that the combination of use of alcohol and sensitive business matters just don’t work for me, or for anyone in my peer group. We call each other on the phone after these functions and warm each other about those who drink. “Don’t get involved with him/her, did you see how s/he poured it down last night/how stupid s/he acted” is sort of how this’ll go.

Someone a few posts back said something about a limited social circle if you’re a nondrinker. I think it’s more like birds of a feather tend to flock together - all of my social circle - and business circle - is pretty much “yuck” on drinking, and on smoking, and of course we would do all in our power to send drug users or dealers to jail.

(I have NO idea how we’d react to people who poop in sinks, or out windows - faint in shock, probably.)

Interesting final confirmation about the person I didn’t refer to the job - she called me a few days ago to tell me about this wonderful person I just had to meet - she went on and on about how great this person is. What she didn’t know - and what I didn’t tell her (though I probably should have) is that we know exactly who this person is, and we’ve been making fun of her behind her back for YEARS - because she always has a glass of something in her hand at various public functions, and, she’s always a bit tipsy. We refer to her as “the drunk”, even though, in all fairness, I don’t think any of us have actually witnessed her in the precise state of being drunk. It’s just that she’s always a bit tipsy, glass in hand, and so she’s the butt of our jokes. Doesn’t surprise me at all that these two know and like each other - how fitting.

Golani, you don’t have to kill someone with a motor vehicle for alcohol use to lead to undesirable consequences.

On the other hand, hereshoping’s explanation about valid use of alcohol does make some sense. Combination of carefully selected drink with top quality food in an elegant dining situation is a concept most people can understand, and is NOT unattractive. That’s not how alcohol is most often used though, at least in my perception.

lealdragon · November 2, 2006, 9:37pm

"Smoking marijuana, medically, is far worse for you than drinking alcohol. "

You’re kidding, right???

Explain, please.

They haven’t even linked it to lung cancer. Which is odd, since it’s smoke.

lealdragon · November 2, 2006, 9:39pm

Here’s another issue: date rape. Drunk girls are easy targets. Stoned girls aren’t. Drunk girls could get raped and not even remember the next day. Stoned girls might be a little slow to react, but they still know what’s going on and they don’t pass out.

BOTH impair judgment and loosen inhibitions.

MomofWildChild · November 2, 2006, 9:45pm

latetoschool- I can assure you, having spent many, many years in the business world, that you are definitely in the minority. No one likes a loud drunk, but social business drinking is quite the norm and has never, in my experience, hurt anyone professionally if done moderately and responsibly.

I learned in the WSJ today that 300 glasses of red wine a day will increase my longevity!

What is your attitude toward underage drinking?

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