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<p>As a taxpayer, you are helping to pay to teach many of students who need precalculus or calculus for their majors in college the same material twice because it was poorly taught the first time in high school.</p>
<p>Note that the same applies to English composition, where many college freshmen are placed into remedial English composition courses because they did not learn good enough writing skills in high school.</p>
<p>As a taxpayer, we are also paying to help re-teach many students who are POORLY taught the same material many years in a row long before they graduate (or not) from HS. This includes math AND English. It IS troubling and why there are kids who graduate WITHOUT being able to read or write and with NO simple math skills (basic addition/subtraction), really lacking basic literacy. It REALLY limits the jobs they can qualify for or perform. It’s like when there is a power outage or they can’t use a calculator and you try to give them exact change or ask them for change when you make a purchase & get a “deer in the headlights” response. They can’t read signs, much less menus or job applications. The world is very limited when you can’t read or write. Nonetheless, many of the adult literacy programs are being cut during these difficult times.</p>
<p>When we are in community doing outreach, we sometimes have to READ To people because they can’t read or write. Very troubling to me.</p>
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A lot of schools are putting their pre-meds through General Physics, so they have to take enough calculus to survive that much.</p>
<p>Agree with calmom on the importance and relevance of statistics and probability. A lot of decisions in the public realm seem to be made based on individual cases rather than on the probability of an actual occurrence.</p>
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If the high school offers other math courses as part of its regular curriculum, I wouldn’t call it “remedial”. In K-12, “remedial” is what happens when the kid is placed in special ed or has specialized tutoring, not when a kid happens to opt for or be placed in a less advanced track offered within the standard curriculum. </p>
<p>If a university offers a course for credit, then it is not “remedial” – even if most students don’t have to take the course because of their high school prep. Heck, I tested out of my college’s English requirement with my AP score – that doesn’t mean that if I had enrolled in freshman English it would have been a “remedial course”. My university did offer a non-credit writing course called Subject A for students who did not place out of it with their SAT score or a placement exam. The fact that it is non-credit is what signals that it is a “remedial” course. </p>
<p>I think people really need to step down from their elitist perch and recognize that many 4-year colleges serve students who do not have lofty career aspirations. The CSU system serves twice as many students as the UC system. Not everyone studies math hoping to become a physicist or theoretical mathematician – some students simply want to qualify to become accountants or school teachers. Not every college student is coming from a high school with a strong college prep program. Not every college freshman is enrolling straight out of high school. </p>
<p>You don’t know who is filling the pre-calc courses at the university. Some may be recent high school grads who should have had that class in high school, but many may be students who have been in the work force for several years or entering college after a term of military service. If my tax money is going to subsidize the teaching of pre-calc to military veterans who need a refresher course after serving their country on the ground in Afghanistan… then I am very happy to pay that money. </p>
<p>It is the mission of the public universities to teach ALL those who come to learn and qualify for admission, but whatever standards are set. California once had a comprehensive system that was the envy of every other state; I’m sorry that with budget cuts and rising tuitions that the current generation doesn’t have the benefits that my generation did. But I don’t begrudge the teaching of any course at any level to any student ready to learn.</p>
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<p>Remedial is often used contextually in some situations. That’s how colleges/universities tend to use the term…whether credit is given for the course or not…especially when I know of some colleges which do give college credit for ostensibly “remedial courses”(i.e. SUNY, Northeastern U back when an older friend attended from 1991-96, etc). Other schools which offer remedial courses such as CUNY* flagship schools or my own college will not grant any credit for remedial courses. </p>
<p>The same applies in high school situations if one follows a less advanced track which places them behind what is considered the “standard curriculum” of a given school. Whether it is taking pre-algebra in 9th grade or later or failing to learn the basics of writing coherent papers by the start of 9th grade or later…the student in either case would be considered “remedial” because he/she has actually fallen behind behind compared with those who are on the standard curriculum. </p>
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<li>The negative perceptions from many local employers and the perception remedial education was a distracting from the primary mission of the 4-year CUNY colleges were factors in why responsibility for its provision was completely shifted to the system’s 2-year community colleges several years ago.</li>
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<p>Only if you define “making sure that all graduates who go on to college are ready to enroll in Calculus 1 (or a math course beyond that level)” as one of a high school’s top priorities.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t put it even in the top 20 priorities. </p>
<p>Also, your assumption that all the college students in precalculus or more-basic-than-precalculus courses are taking them because they will need to take calculus later on is wrong. Some colleges have a math requirement as part of their general education requirements for graduation, and students may fulfill it in a variety of ways, one of which may be by taking one or more of these courses. For example, here is a list of the courses that satisfy the fundamental requirement in mathematics at the University of Maryland: [CORE</a> Liberal Arts and Sciences Studies Program - Fundamental Studies - University of Maryland](<a href=“http://www.ugst.umd.edu/core/courses/Fundamental/FundaSt-math.html]CORE”>http://www.ugst.umd.edu/core/courses/Fundamental/FundaSt-math.html)</p>
<p>I’m not sure where this thread has meandered but based on the subject, I can tell you my son was not. Calculus is required for his undergraduate business school. He took it last semester (freshman year) and. . . um. . . will be re-taking. (He said many many kids–even some who had taken calculus in high school–flunked the class.) (Hmmmmm. . .)</p>
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<p>You don’t know how many of the college precalc students are taking it because it was “poorly taught the first time in high school” versus those who are taking it because they never took it in high school.</p>
<p>In our local school district, for example, the standard sequence math kids never reach precalc - they take algebra 1 in ninth grade, geometry in tenth, algebra 2 in eleventh, and in twelfth, half a semester of trig and half a semester of stats. Only the kids who start algebra 1 in eighth grade (in a typical year, maybe 20% of the class) get to precalc. Lots of the standard sequence kids go on to college, and if their colleges have math distribution requirements, they’re going to take college algebra or precalc or statistics or whatever, but not calculus.</p>
<p>You also don’t know how many of the kids who DID take precalc in high school and need to repeat it in college are doing so because it was “taught poorly” and how many are doing so because they did not apply themselves. Or, for that matter, how many could handle calculus but plan to go into majors that don’t require it and just opt for an easier freshman year.</p>
<p>Surely there are high school math teachers who “teach poorly,” but to make the generalization you make goes beyond the available evidence.</p>
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<p>According to some on this thread, that must have been because it was “taught poorly,” no?</p>
<p>I have no idea what the percentage of high school seniors is who are entering 4-year year colleges prepared for calculus but it can’t be particularly high based on what I’ve seen. How many states aside from Michigan require 4 years of math to graduate from high school? That’s not a requirement in California. That’s also not a requirement in New York State, where a Regents diploma only requires that a student pass exams in Algebra (I). To earn an advanced NYS Regents diploma a student also needs to pass the Geometry exam. That’s it. The usual math sequence in NYS public schools is Algebra, Geometry, Trigonometry and Pre-Calc. Some accelerated students either start the sequence in 8th grade and, like my D1, take Calc in high school, while a handful skip Pre-Calc and go right to Calculus. My guess, , is that fewer than 20% at our average NYS public are technically ready for Calculus upon graduation (and half of those will need remedial math before tackling college calc.</p>
<p>Neither my wife or I took math beyond Trigonometry/Algebra II in high school, but then we did not need Calculus for our majors. On the other hand, we made sure our daughters took 4 years of math in HS just in case. One is a Biology/History double major (who needed Calc I & II to fulfill requirements) while the other is a Theater major who will probably never take another math class.</p>
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<p>Just wanted to point out, this requirement does not mean that every student must take precalc to graduate from high school. They can opt for other classes.</p>
<p>This thread is interesting. .Just some additional observations.</p>
<p>As a teacher of remedial English at a community college, I can tell you that we all should be mighty grateful that in the good ole USA we give people second, third, and even more chances. What I often see in my classes (and I know this thread is focusing on 4-year colleges) are students who: A. Screwed around in high school, B. Have such poor living conditions at home with abuse, drug use, or whatever that they have had a terrible time surviving let alone thriving at school, C. Have done the minimum work required to get whatever grades they got in high school and this differs from A because they pass most classes, and/or D. Have always blamed someone else for their failures (see poor teachers comments in previous posts). Overwhelmingly, students up through high school who perform marginally do not take ownership of their educations.</p>
<p>Oh, and another beautiful thing about this country is that young people can change their minds. So a student who doesn’t think he or she wants to go to college can decide later to do that and there are plans in place so that student can get whatever remediation is needed to succeed.</p>
<p>Our county in Maryland requires four years of math to graduate, but the level varies widely depending on the ability of the student.</p>
<p>I have a master’s degree and have not taken math above what I would consider algebra II. However, I remind my students every semester that having a good foundation in math gives them many more options for careers, and that part of the beauty of a CC is that they can strat wherever they need to and build.</p>
<p>This topic intrigues me so much, momofthreeboys, that I went back and dug up old school yearbooks from decades past. I cannot find the one from grade 9, but there were six college-prep classes in my grade 10 year. By the time we reached Grade 13 (Ontario is the last jurisdiction in North America to have a 13th year of college prep), there were only two classes left. Most students either dropped out or transferred out.</p>
<p>Ours is a science and tech focused school. In elementary school our guidance teacher gave us the feeling that somehow it is not as academic as the arts and science focused schools, and that students go to our program are somehow weaker. He could not have been more wrong.</p>
<p>When I was in grade 12, the province was experimenting with an Ontario version of the SAT. All the college prep students wrote it without preparation. When the results came out, the students from a local arts and science focused school wanted to compare notes, looking for a chance to mock us. Well, it turned out they were slightly better than us in the verbal portion, but we, on the other hand, buried them in the quant portion. The weakest students, though, came from the commerce focused schools. This was, after all, the 1960s; before the rocket scientists discovered Wall Street.</p>
<p>We had very few options in our 13th year. Since our schools main focus was to graduate students into the industries, our basic course of study was restricted to English, 3 maths, physics, and chemistry. We could substitute French for a math, and/or take history/biology before class in the morning. This brutal combination became known as the Hong Kong Special after 1967, when a lot of Hong Kong students came into our system. In some schools, it was called the Chinese six-pack. Interesting time.</p>
<p>My experience simply does not match the opinion of many here. Why, for example, so many students dropped out of my college prep program while other students were making upper first class? We took the same courses with the same teachers and follow the same curriculum, so what gives? (A principal, who was a former math teacher, told me that many students start to drop out of the program in significant numbers when they encounter grade 11 academic math, but the numbers really cascade with grade 12 calculus and physics).</p>
<p>Many years later, a friend was told that 12 U calculus is used as an invisible sieve. When I started looking, sure enough, just about every competitive undergraduate program in the province requires calculus for admission. IOW, instead of having students jumping through fire to proof themselves, just have them take calculus and see what they can do. In a few tipsy-top programs, where even calculus cannot differentiate them, the university have them do a math competition designed for grade 11 students, and use the score as a 7th course.</p>
<p>As far as I can tell, it works beautifully. By knowing where the person went to school and what the major is, I know pretty well what the person can do. No guessing required.</p>
<p>To receive an advanced studies diploma in Virginia, students must have four years of high school mathematics. In most cases, that will include pre-calculus.</p>
<p>For the Core 40 diploma (what the state considers college ready) Indiana requires 3 years of math up to Algebra 2. For the Academic Honors diploma, it requires 4, and students must have taken either 2 AP courses or scores at least a 1200 (CR+M) on SAT/26 ACT. Only 32% of Indiana students complete Academic Honors diploma.</p>
<p>To annasdad–my son did say the professor was awful (and had no similar complaints about any of his other profs). On the other hand, I’m quite sure he did not ask for help/go to extra study sessions/. . . . I have a lot of sympathy for foreign-born math professors, and I think the student has to exhaust all measures for help before really placing the onus on the teaching. (I have not asked him if people he knows with other teachers in the same course had the same issue.) Doing my best to stay out of it, actually, although trying to help him figure out the best course of action going forward.</p>
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<p>Not sure anyone would disagree that education is a fine thing. The point, I think, is whether such remediation should be conducted at a four-year university, many of which are research-focused, and where large classes are the norm for lower division courses.</p>
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<p>This is good, but it doesn’t guarantee that the student has truly mastered the material to the point where he/she can make use of it in a more advanced math course, such as calculus.</p>
<p>Good post by MD Mom.</p>
<p>But four-year universities in more rural states draw from a very wide range of schools, blue bayou.</p>