What would you do? I need some clarity.

07DAD · October 18, 2009, 1:00pm

Renegotiate implies a degree of equality between the young adult and the parent. If the parent views the dollars after they are made available to the student as the parents money, the student cant renegotiate anything. Its called pleading/begging. Sort of like the relationship when the now young adult was 15.

Seems OP made a short list of tats that were not acceptable to her. The student blew that off. The student has to face the consequences. As does the OP. Since the young adult has little if anything to renegotiate with, she may choose one of several ways of reacting. Some may be very hurtful to the relationship, but as the adult, I’m sure OP thought this through.

But, if OP, in her mind, gets to approve/disapprove all the students expenditures on the basis of her own perception of what is too frivolous or extravagant, there is a control issue whether intended or not.

I made a monetary commitment to my S of X amount for X length of time, conditioned only on being a full time student. I dont bailout with additional cash and he doesnt have to account or justify his expenditures to me. It has worked out fine.

Jolynne_Smyth · October 18, 2009, 1:19pm

conflictedmom–if my S did get a tattoo (or made any other extremely frivolous/unnecessary purchase while he/I were on a budget), then I’d make him pay me back the $ on some sort of installment plan that he could afford. I’d have a serious talk about discretionary spending, how hard I worked to provide $ for the college experience, how I didn’t appreciate the use of a big chunk of change on something that’s clearly discretionary, etc. I would likely cut back on the $ given for discretionary living expenses.

But, I’d keep the whole value judgment, re: the tattoo itself, out of it. I think body adornment falls into one of those very personal categories that an individual has the right to make choices about (no matter where I fall in funding his/her lifestyle). I may not approve of it (& would present a variety of perspectives that would hopefully allow the young person to reflect on the unforeseen consequences). But it’s not something (like hair style, clothing style, dating preferences, etc.) that I feel falls within my parental purview to control. In fact, by trying to exert control over an adult in these matters, it can (often) produce the opposite of the objective sought (e.g. running out & getting a super-expensive, big tattoo, dating the forbidden person).

It’s hard to separate these issues (spending my $ vs. doing something I don’t approve of), I know.

When my son first started talking tattoo (with a mischevious sparkle in his eye), I forced myself to say: “Well, when you are 18, it will be your decision. But, it’s not something I’d do because…[aesthetic preferences change over time, the hip factor has diminished when grandmas & every other teen girl has them, etc.].” It wasn’t easy, but I think it removed tattoo from the category of 'things I’ll do (in part) to differentiate myself from my parents."

younghoss–sure, you can say the daughter could have selected a cheaper school or taken out all her living expenses/tuition on her own personal loans w/no help from mom. Thus, she made a choice to buy into the conditional arrangement w/mom (funding for college, no tattoos). However, that doesn’t address whether it is really appropriate for the mother to make such a request of the adult daughter. Ideally, the mom (likely) wants to convey that she believes in her daughter, has every hope for her success in school and in life. By saying that she is jerking back the funding because the daughter made a choice re: body art (&, according to her original arrangement, the funding would have been cut off no matter the cost of the tattoo) — she could be conveying that her aesthetic preferences as to her daughter’s skin decoration are more important than helping her succeed in school. I don’t believe that, underneath, that’s what conflictedmom probably feels.

mominva · October 18, 2009, 1:42pm

In all this I am wondering, would the OP know about the $1000 spent if not for the big mouthed ‘friend’?
If mom had contributed her usual amount in her usual pattern, without DD needing additional funds, and without mom knowing about the tattoo, where would things stand today?

oldfort · October 18, 2009, 2:37pm

07DAD - my kids renegotiate with me all the time. When they first entered into HS, my rule was they couldn’t go to any party where there was drinking. When D1 was a senior, she came to me to ask me if I would reconsider it because 1) it would be with a small group of her close friends, 2) she wouldn’t drink, 3) if she was she would sleep over with the host’s parents’ consent.

We also struck a deal with D1 if she kept up her grades, not get in trouble (smoking, alcohol, drugs) by the time she was ready to drive, we would buy her a car. Financial control? Maybe. When we go to work we need to adhere to our employer’s dress code or we would be fired. Financial control? Yes. Choice? Get another job if you don’t like it , or try to get the dress code changed. Is there an equality in employer/employee or parent/child? Yes and no. Even the party with apparent more power has incentive to keep the other party happy as long as the request is not a “deal breaker.” I am sure OP is not in the habit of saying no to her daughter all time, as long as she felt it was reasonable. For whatever reason, she didn’t think getting a tattoo or the cost of it was reasonable. On the other hand, if the daughter had tried to have a discussion with OP first, maybe OP would have changed her mind (ok, $100 for a tattoo in a discreet place would be fine), but we would never know.

For the record, for number of times D1 has come to us to ask us to change our rules it’s never been pleading/begging, at least not since she turned 8. I would be very surprised if there are that many people operate under that model.

oldfort · October 18, 2009, 2:40pm

mominva - if I never knew my husband cheated on me then I would never have to do anything, but if I ever found out then I would have to do something about it. In this case, OP found out.

mominva · October 18, 2009, 3:02pm

Yes, oldfort, agreed. OP found out and had to act on it. And yes, D’s judgement (or lack thereof) was inconsiderate of mother’s feelings.

But OP states it’s 98% money and 2% tattoo.
Child is getting agreed upon amount; is child foregoing popcorn at movies, or eating-in each meal, or buying clothes at thrift shops to create some additional discretionary cash? Is the $1000 an accrual of 3 years of accumulation of savings, birthday gift $ and earnings?
It seems mom is out no more than she expected to spend.

Just looking at it from various perspectives.

oldfort · October 18, 2009, 3:07pm

There was a thread on what parents are doing to help out their college grad financially. In principal, I would not want to help out my kids on a regular basis because I wouldn’t want to have an opinion on how my grown kids spend money. If I help them to pay for their rent, I probably would be upset if I heard they were taking a trip to Europe or throwing a lavish dinner party for a friend, whereas I wouldn’t care if I wasn’t paying for anything. Very good reason for grown kids to be financially independent as soon as possible.

sorghum · October 18, 2009, 3:27pm

I tend to agree with edad:

It is important that that level of hostility was there at $75.

You give a certain more or less fixed amount of money. The tattoo does not put you under pressure to give more money. So all its about is control, nothing else. It is not about potentially fatal drugs, or about D’s and F’s, just you don’t like tattoos, and you want to make your gifts highly conditional.

poetgrl · October 18, 2009, 3:31pm

I find this thread really interesting. We, too, have a no tattoo, no strange piercings, until you are fully self-supporting rule. D’s frequently come to us to discuss the tattoo (each has one. I think it’s a generational thing!) they intend to get when they are on their own. Maybe it’s strange that they’ve never tried to talk us into it, but I don’t even think they’ve considered we’d change our mind.

And these are definitely renegotiate types…Oldest is an award winning debater and loves a good logical argument and youngest is captain of every sports team and very used to being the boss.

Still, I think they just know it’s a non-negotiable with us, and I support the OP in her original intention and also in the concept of D paying back for her discretionary spending outside the parameters of parental support. It’s not always clear why kids do things like this, but I really believe, as a psychologist, that kids want pushback and want to have boundaries to feel safe in a relationship. They do these kinds of things, even at these ages, to make sure that someone still cares about what they do with themselves. They don’t really want to be able to push us back so far that they feel we don’t care. It’s really true.

poetgrl · October 18, 2009, 3:44pm

OH. A story.

I’m a youngish mom for our area but I’ve always made it a point to not be “cool.” Once my D was complaining that so and so’s mom was soooooo much cooler than me. :rolleyes: I laughed and spent a day being as cool as I really am. By the end of the day she was NOT in the mood for the cool mom, at all, anymore. “MOM! Turn down the music. MOM! Stop that. MOM, are you going to WEAR that?”

“Not so great with the cool mom?”

“No. No. That’s fine. Just don’t DO that anymore!” She was horrified. (I knew she would be.)

Of course, once there was a show on TV and I said, “What are you watching?” “The world’s strictest parents.” “See?” I said. “I’m not so bad, am I?” “Actually? They’re pretty much the same as you.” I laughed.

So, just a disclaimer on the above post. I am, apparently, one of the world’s strictest parents. FWIW

littlegreenmom · October 18, 2009, 6:59pm

Poetgrl,

My kids seem to like us not being too cool, also.

And I am a big believer (and have talked here about it before), the stop sign parenting philosophy. Provide “stop signs” and safe boundaries for the kids when they are young, otherwise chaos results. You can’t navigate traffic without some order, can you? It’s too confusing, and you never know when you should stop, or turn left, or go without these guidepoints to tell you what to do.

It’s worked for the most part with the kiddies.

poetgrl · October 18, 2009, 7:20pm

Yes, and it’s an emotional safety issue. The OP’s daughter knows that she can count on her mother caring about this and wanting to figure out what’s up. As in “Why would you DO this?” She knows she can have an argument and can do the silent treatment, which children ONLY do with parents they trust to care. It’s important for our kids to be able to trust us to be who they know we are, especially when the world around them is changing.

But it doesn’t surprise me, LGM. I’ve always suspected I could trust my kids with you for the weekend. :)

younghoss · October 18, 2009, 8:52pm

It may be, Jolynne(Post 122) that the D will interpret the stopping of future funding as meaning the parent considers the D’s skin more important than the child’s success. In fact, I expect that is what the child will think, at first. But if this 21 yr old is actually nearing adulthood, after the initial surprise wears off this student should then see more of the picture, and a more accurate picture. When this student realizes that if she had waited approx 1 yr for the tatt, then there would have been no problem. She would then be an adult in all ways(over 18 and self-supporting) and would be beyond the timeline of the tatts. The real truth is that students’ choice of a tatt NOW, is jeopardizing her future funding, which may jeopardize her future schooling. This isn’t a case of saying “I’ll disown you if u get a tatt”. That is permanent. That is forever. It’s only saying I will continue to support you, even though you have reached the age of adulthood, through completion of college, unless u get another tatt.
With her actions, this student said “I want another tatt; I must have it now, and I am willing to forego future support.” Yet, once the deed was done, now the student expects the support to continue anyway.

Jolynne_Smyth · October 18, 2009, 9:02pm

I really don’t think that because one might take a more ‘here are the substantive reasons this might not be a good idea’ vs ‘don’t do it because I said so’ that one is necessarily uncaring or unable or unwilling to put up boundaries and expectations. The goal is to have the child get a have a deeper understanding of the consequences a behavior, instead of issuing a flat (perhaps easier?) absolute prohibition. That’s not trying to be ‘cool’ – that’s trying to be effective.

poetgrl · October 18, 2009, 9:52pm

The important thing in parenting is consistency, that kids know what they can expect. I’m sure your kids feel loved and supported and unsurprised by your reactions, too. The unhappy kids I see are the ones who have no clue what their parent will do, not the ones whose parents are strict or lenient, but the ones who can’t count on where they stand. btw, I’m not one of the strictest parents in the world, anymore than you’re letting your kids run around doing whatever the heck they want to do in your house! If you were? You wouldn’t even be on this thread. Which is not a thread which makes either of us particularly cool. ;)

littlegreenmom · October 18, 2009, 9:54pm

I think Balloon Boy’s parents are on the super lenient side, what do you think? I am pretty sure there are no limits in that house.

poetgrl · October 18, 2009, 10:20pm

The only limit seems to be not to come out of the garage rafters until your mom comes to get you.

worknprogress · October 18, 2009, 10:27pm

Poetgirl - As a someone who also works with young adults, I agree that it is not a matter of strict vs. leniency, it is really a matter of a child knowing what to expect from their folks. Instability and unpredictability cause problems more than whether a parent is too strict or too lenient, by someone else’s standards (Okay, balloon boy’s parents are a whole other topic)

I have another thought for CM. One of the toughest things about being a single parent is that when your child does something stupid, or hurtful, or thoughtless, you don’t have someone handy to remind you specifically what is great about your child. You sound like a wonderful parent who has been hurt deeply by your DD’s actions and you came up with a compromise that allows you to re-establish your self-respect and yet have a consequence for her actions. What I hope for you is that you have someone to recall all the ways she is a good kid so that you feel better about your efforts as her mom and about her as a person. Hang in there. Parenting is not for the faint-hearted.

07DAD · October 19, 2009, 7:26am

oldfort post 124–To me, the issue with a young adult child is that it is no longer advisable that the child have an obligation to “keep the parent happy” at anything other than the mutual goal level. The parent wants the student to have a college education and agrees to fund some amount so long as the student is progressing through college. That is the win-win goal.

Continuing to restrict young adults to what pleases the parent by threats of withholding funding of the jointly desired achievement is counter productive IMO. Is that what is best for the young adult child’s development, the parent-young adult relationship or achieving the goal of a college education? No.

Wildwood11 · October 19, 2009, 8:05am

I agree with Jolynne’s posts which suggest that putting a strict prohibition on something that is so personal is never a good idea. My D1 got herself two small tattoos while still underage and living at home. I didn’t make a big deal about it when she came home with them, but have reiterated many times how she may come to regret them as styles change. I remind her repeatedly that what is in vogue today, may seem really tacky to her ten years from now. At the time, she talked about getting more when she was 18 (which I said would be up to her) but I have done my best to show her how foolish I thought it would be. Now, 19, I´m pretty sure she has changed her mind about getting more tats because of their permanence.

I consider myself lenient on self-expression and personal choice issues, but very strict in ethical expectations and her behavior towards others. I think she is acting very maturely at college right now because she is in control of her own choices.

As far as the money goes, IMO, if you´re paying tuition, you have a right to expect good grades and 4-yr completion and responsibity in that area. If you are helping out with rent, you can stipulate the kind of place she can live in and require responsiblity in that area. But if her extra expenses are being paid by a part-time job (which I think I understood to be the case) than she should be able to make her own choices about how she spends that money. If you think now that she can step up and contribute more, then by all means, lower your payments, but not because she defied you in something she has a right to decide for herself, but because you are struggling financially and she seems to have money to spare.

After all, as most parents here, you have a personal interest in your child finishing college, we can´t pretend that we’re being totally altruistic in supporting them, since we want their success as much as they do. So, I think it´s disingenuous to condition our financial support to their choices outside the realm of college.

What would you do? I need some clarity.

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