What you wish you knew before signing your divorce agreement

Parent Cafe
1

<p>Hi wise ones,</p>

<p>I have a close friend who is getting divorced. She has a good lawyer (we think), but no divorced friends to talk to. Seems like one of those moments when bouncing things off someone who has been through this could be of help. She has young children and is a stay-at-home mom. Ex makes a good living but is not a particularly cooperative fellow.</p>

<p>I know the specifics probably vary with each couple, but for those who have been through divorce, what do you wish you knew before you signed your divorce agreement? What would you have done differently? What’s your most important piece of advice?</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

2

<p>You can include provisions for who is paying for college. I was clueless and that was the last thing on my mind when they were 4 and 6.</p>

3

<p>I am lucky that I haven’t had to deal with this, but few things do come to my mind. What about his IRA(s) now? She should ask to freeze all of their IRAs on the day they get divorced and name each other their sole beneficiaries. Those IRAs are to be divided 50/50 when they are of age. After they get divorced then the H could open other IRAs.</p>

<p>I do agree that college education should be discussed. H maybe a very involved/loving father right now, but it may not be the case if he should get married again with a second family.</p>

4

<p>One of my close friends got divorced when her daughter was 9 or 10 years old. Things she wished had been decided:</p>

<p>–college expenses should be spelled out in the divorce settlement, in detail.</p>

<p>–extra curricular expenses in school should be spelled out, in detail. Her ex refuses to pay a cent towards any things like youth group activities/conventions/camps etc. Same with things like music lessons or tutors.</p>

<p>–bar or bat mitzvah expenses–similar. The father eventually agreed to pay for the meals for his 4 tables of guests–but did not pay a penny toward all the other costs (bat mitzvah class and tutor; other party expenses, such as invitations, decorations, dj, meals for the daughter’s guests, etc.</p>

<p>–spell out issues as far as maintenance of health insurance for children, and division of expenses for things not paid by insurance (dental work, orthodontia, glasses/contacts,mental health/therapists) and also spell out how medical decisions are going to be made. My friend’s daughter has developed an eating disorder; dad refuses to recognize it as a problem, will not contribute to the therapy which is not covered by the minimal insurance.</p>

<p>make sure any child support is routed through the state agency and not dependent upon the ex’s whims and good will. make sure the settlement requires report of any changes in compensation within 30 days.</p>

<p>if she is receiving maintenance/alimony–what are terms? If she gets a job, is there a transition period where she still gets maintenance while starting out at the bottom of the job chain? Or maybe sliding maintenance to ensure her a certain standard of living, at least for a set period of time.</p>

<p>Tell her to think carefully about whether she wants to keep the marital home. A lot of women seem to dig in on this issue, and it can become an albatross. Sometimes it is better to go for sale of the house, with her to negotiate for an amount she can use towards buying a home that she can manage the payments and upkeep on more easily.</p>

5

<p>Get cash, not the house. Use some of the cash to get the smallest, most economical house that will hold you and the kids. I’ve seen a lot of women want to keep the big fancy house “for the kids,” but the big fancy house has high operating costs and alimony / child support is the same amount whether you have a big house or a small one.</p>

<p>If you’re going to need qualified plan / IRA money to live on, get a QDRO or the IRA equivalent (ask the custodian what paperwork they want). Do not roll the money into an IRA in your own name, because the moment you do that, the 10% penalty applies to any withdrawals. Take the cash, pay the tax (but no 10% penalty). Only roll over the amount you’re sure you won’t need.</p>

6

<p>A friend went through this painful exercise. Did not have any minor children, but the divorce was complicated due to another issue, with which I (sort of) got familiar while helping to research it.</p>

<p>If the soon to be ex’s compensation includes stock options and RSUs that have not been vested yet, they still may be considered marital property and divided in the future - depending on how they were awarded. The parts of ISOs, NQs and RSU that were awarded during their marriage and then vested before the divorce filing date are usually marital property and will need to be divided. One absolutely needs a properly drafted QDRO for that. Gather all stock award documents; you might also need to consult with an accountant or an attorney who has experience in this kind of matter.</p>

7

<p>A friend discovered that while the ex husband agreed to cover their daughter’s college, he specified instate. So when the daughter got into Berkeley and a couple of hot privates out of state, dad was able to say ‘only if your mother covers the difference.’ Dad was a high-earning lawyer; mom taught high school. Daughter stayed instate.</p>

8

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<p>^^^THIS!^^^</p>

<p>About 10 years ago my friend (Southern California) agreed to take the house as her share of the divided assets. The housing market plummeted and she is left paying off a mortgage for her underwater house, while her ex purchased a smaller home after the drop and is sitting pretty. She also should have been entitled to a portion of his future retirement (defined pension and 403B) but didn’t press for it because she had a good job at the time, but that changed too. Bottom line, find a good attorney who can caution against these costly mistakes.</p>

9

<p>I’m not divorced, but I’ve seen many friends who are. </p>

<p>The advice about the house is ok, but it depends on overall assets available and the valuation the divorce assigns to the house. There are circumstances where getting the house might be ok.</p>

<p>Don’t fall into the paranoid trap of assuming that the husband has assets “hidden”. I’m sure this happens sometimes in certain circumstances, but I’ve heard it over and over and its usually a manifestation of the “What!? This is all we have?” reaction to the full accounting of assets and liabilities. Its not likely that the husband has secret accounts. </p>

<p>Its really expensive to live. If you haven’t been involved in paying the bills and managing things, there is a good chance that you don’t know what you’re doing. You need to get together a very good idea of what its going to cost you to live, and also take an inventory of your earning ability, or ability to find someone else who is willing to support you. This varies greatly from person to person. In any case, knowing what it costs you to live is a good starting point for everything else and all other decisions.</p>

10

<p>Think it through. It is not uncommon for there to be a trade off with the agreement regarding funding expenses of children after high school in a state that does not give the court the power to order it other than by agreement. Often the agreement concerning alimony and/or division of property has the high income parent give up less property or pay less alimony for the agreement to fund the after high school items.</p>

<p>On numerous occasions, the child is not interested in college or won’t stick with college. The parent has bartered away property and/or years of higher alimony for essentially nothing.</p>

<p>In my state, the “support” belongs to the child especially the after high school support. One situation involved a kid who negotiated a deal with his dad. The child (NMFinalist) took a free ride at a state university (this was when lots of state universities gave NMF a lot of merit money) and a lump cash amount from dad instead of the much more expensive private college tuition.</p>

<p>Seen similar situations with agreements regarding paying for weddings. One time there was a “cap” to the amount to be paid to third parties for the wedding. The dad and daughter cut a cash deal with daughter taking much less than the cap but a nice chunk of change in lieu of a “mega-wedding.”</p>

11

<p>I’m a lawyer and I have been divorced. </p>

<ol>
<li> Count on going back to work. Yes, even if he makes a good living, yes even if you have little kids, yes even if the court awards you support. Yes, even if the court awards you property.<br></li>
<li> The family house is too expensive for you to keep as a single mom. </li>
<li> Just because the court orders support (child or spousal) or a payoff due on the 1st you may not actually get it until later. You may not get it until the 10th. Or the 29th. Or much later. Yes, there are consequences if he doesn’t pay but they aren’t fast and they aren’t certain…and you may NOT hold the kids hostage for the money.<br></li>
<li> Cooperate regarding the kids. He may not know how to do things exactly how you like but unless he is a raging addict with four felonies the court will allow him parenting time. Do not try to micromanage his parenting.<br></li>
<li> In two years things will be settled financially and emotionally. Don’t rush into another relationship…it’s amazing how much chemsitry there is when you are fresh out of a marriage. </li>
</ol>

<p>And too late probably for this but MOST commonly the “best offer” regarding money is likely to come up front–the earliest one–especially if he is the “leaver” because the offers only go down from there.</p>

12

<p>Double posting to add: (6) you save more money by compromise than by fighting it out and paying the lawyers. Mediate/do it by consent (agreement) when possible. My ex-h and I are both lawyers and one example of what we did was about the house…we didn’t get an appraisal or go through a ton of machinations, we both estimated what we thought it was worth and split the difference…it all mostly comes out in the wash…keeping a business like relationship with your spouse rather than aggravating/opposing them at every turn pays in many ways. </p>

<p>and (7) your lawyer charges in 6 minute increments. Every time you call, write, leave a message, etc you are being charged at least 6 minutes. There will ALWAYS be something more to fight about if you/or your lawyer is so inclined. Lawyers are happy to take $300/hr for you and your ex to fight about who gets the Target rug and who is allowed to get the kids’ hair cut.</p>

13

<p>Last post is gospel, imo.</p>

14

<p>I’ve heard others say:</p>

<p>ex keeps life insurance of X amount as you as beneficiary</p>

<p>pay or help pay for college…maybe split fairly based on each parent’s income? (need to determine if paying for privates is included).</p>

<p>continued coverage on health plan.</p>

15

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<p>Especially if the kids are very young so that the period of being under the decree is substantial.</p>

<p>Also, things have a way of working out better if there can be flex in how the ex’s actually operate. Paying big bucks to have a lawyer draft draconian minutia into the decree may seem like a good idea. But, at some point both ex’s are going to need a favor of the other.</p>

16

<p>*Quote:
Get cash, not the house
*</p>

<p>What is it with women & housing?
My sister in laws 2nd husband is significantly older than her (& both my H and I thought he was creepy when we met him- not that age makes you creepy necessarily)
She seemed to marry him because he was willing to have a huge house built for her & her dogs ( she has 4 or 5 good size dogs- no kids)</p>

<p>They hadnt been married that long when he began cheating on her and becoming verbally abusive, but she was determined to stay in the house & they lived on different floors for almost a year until she finally got him to leave. ( he cheated on her & was abusive the whole time- but it was her " dream" house)
Her mother was so worried about her safety that she bought her a weapon.
It seemed crazy to me.</p>

17

<p>Be sure to specify if either spouse is to get a share of the pension of the other spouse. One of my friends was a nurse and her soon to be ex was a pilot who earned a LOT more (they kept relocating for his career). The divorce decree DID specify that she would get a portion of his pension for all her relocating. It has been very helpful to her since she retired to have a portion of his pension added to hers; the two combined allow her a comfortable retirement.</p>

<p>Agree about specifying college in the divorce decree, as well as private school if that is a possibility and there are children of the marriage. My friend who got a divorce was disgusted that her ex wouldn’t pay for their S to attend the same private school that his cousins (on ex’s side) attended. She paid for it out of her own pocket because it was important. He was also balky about paying for college, so they attended a school she could afford. It was a BIG stretch for her while he was very comfortable with his much larger salary.</p>

18

<p>I have no personal direct experience with this, but this caught my eye:

A friend’s ex-h has been a master at failing to pay her one red cent of alimony or monies owed, and he is a very slippery character who disappears without a trace. She was able to get in her divorce decree that he keep a life insu policy with her as benificiary, BUT I don’t think they used HER address for any notification and she has no way of knowing if he has paid the premiums or if its been dropped. Oh, and she doesnt have a current address for him or a current phone # (long story- he stays one step ahead of the law) so has no way of knowing for sure (he’s stopped communicating with the adult kids because they side with mom) if hes alive or dead. And she’d have to be able to produce a death certificate to collect. I’d think she would have the policy info and could check up on it to see if its still in place, but I don’t ask.</p>

19

<p>Your friend is very lucky to count you as a friend, as this is a great question.</p>

<p>My sister has learned the hard way on several issues. Orthadonture costs were mentioned earlier, but don’t forget those pesky, costly, wisdom teeth. </p>

<p>Her ex also tried to significantly downgrade the health insurance plan and force them to change doctors.</p>

<p>He refused to pay anything for his son’s $3,000 travel soccer league. </p>

<p>My sister’s vet bills are outrageous, too, but it’s the “family” dog. </p>

<p>If the soon-to-be ex promises anything, get it in writing. “I’ll come over and fix that”, “I’ll move that out of the house”, etc. and then attach a monetory value if she has to do it after a certain date.</p>

<p>Ex wanted to stop support payments the minute the kids turned 18, even though they were still in high school. </p>

<p>During the divorce proceedings, my sister managed to charge him adultery, a misdemeanor. Even though there was no direct consequence, I think it made her feel better.</p>

<p>They go to court every other year, still fighting about something. It’s awful.</p>

<p>She has been able to keep the house, but may downsize when the child support payments stop next year.</p>

20

<p>I’m not divorced but I find that many of my divorced friends get caught up in what their exes are able to do and they aren’t. You are not going to be able to do the things you did when you were married but your ex may. You may not be able to join the country club or go on great vacations or have great toys. I see women make the mistake of trying to keep up with the ex and the life they had before. You have to give that up. </p>

<p>I’ve also found that and I don’t know if this is the truth. But they hate the ex and they hate the money that he had to give them. So they buy things to “get rid of that ex’s money”. I’ve seen people buy a new house full of furniture or think that when they don’t have the kids they should go on trips “because the ex is having fun and going out when he doesn’t have the kids”. It’s not a contest between you and the ex.</p>

<p>I don’t know if this is true but my friends said that when they were getting divorced, they could not make any provisions for college. That it was not done in our state.</p>

<p>I don’t think they were being selfish but number 1 they had to think of their future and how they were going to be taken care of in retirement.</p>