What's this education worth anything?

Parent Cafe
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<p>I think the personal attacks on POIH are both unnecessary and unwarranted. Attacking the person is an easy way not to address unpopular arguments. We may not agree with him but that does make him an idiot. He may not know the difference between Orthodox, Conservative or Reform Judaism, but so what! Neither would 95% of Americans.</p>

<p>POIH’s lack of mastery of the English language should not make his position especially offensive. Around the world and even in the US, the fastest growing belief system is the absence of a belief system or atheism. To an outsider, whether from Asia, Europe or even South America the ever presence of religion in US society can appear disturbing. While the US may be the only developed country to have elected a person of color as head of state, it is also the only country where being an avowed atheist would guarantee you could never be elected President (at least in the next century). Religious organizations have such sway over the political system that suggesting that Darwinism is the only accepted scientific theory of evolution is tantamount to political suicide. A large number of states are pushing for the introduction of “creation science” or its “intelligent design” cousin in the high school curriculum making the US the laughingstock of the rest of the world. Neither Orthodox Judaism or Islam require acceptance of “young earth creationism” as part of their belief systems. But making a statement to that effect by any elected official in the US gets you pilloried. </p>

<p>POIH chose to focus his concern on a fairly minor religious issue over which people can agree to disagree. I can only wonder what would have happened if he had focused his attention on more insidious effects of religion in the educational system!</p>

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<p>"see that based on many of the responses to this thread that are downright hostile. What does it mean if you only “tolerate” the speech of people who agree with you? Do you guys really think, even for a second, that you are tolerant people, from your behavior here?</p>

<p>yes. I tolerate that the OP has a right to not be censored by the state, and a right to post on this site, as long as he observes the TOU. We in turn have the right to disagree - and to attack him for his stance (again, within the TOU) If you do NOT understand that, i suggest you drop james madison as a handle, as you do NOT understand his thought or his works.</p>

<p>“What kind of a religion does not allow you to talk during graduation?”</p>

<p>She is not allowed to use electricity. Orthodox Judaism allows you to use electricity during a graduation, but not if its on shabbot or a holiday.</p>

<p>" How naive must one be, to think that this actually brings you closer to understanding life, god, and our existence?"</p>

<p>If you have neither tried it, nor even read seriously about the spiritual impact of shabbot observance, I dont think you can understand.</p>

<p>" What kind of backwards-nonsense is that."</p>

<p>its not.</p>

<p>" WHY should our society accommodate diseased mentalities like that, that serve no useful function in our society and only hold us back??"</p>

<p>I rather suspect that Orthodox Jews (at least the modern college attending ones) have done far more to contribute to our society than folks like you.</p>

<p>“If this girl was doing raindances, animal sacrifices, drinking goat blood and singing to the sun god ten times a day, no one here would have the guts to say there was a problem. ALL in the name of “religious tolerance””</p>

<p>I dont see why singing to the sun god ten times a day would bother me (well as a liberal American - as a Jew id have to call that “too reconstructionist for my taste”) Drinking goat blood - Are you a vegetarian? Why is eating goat muscle fine, but you are troubled by drinking goat blood (I mean in kashrut consuming blood is forbidden, but I am told thats a superstition). </p>

<p>You do a disservice to the name of James Madison.</p>

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<p>“I think the personal attacks on POIH are both unnecessary and unwarranted. Attacking the person is an easy way not to address unpopular arguments. We may not agree with him but that does make him an idiot”</p>

<p>at some point someones positions DO make one an idiot. What else does?</p>

<p>As for the notion that because some rightwing fundie christian pols in Kansas and Texas taking a backward position on science education, justifies the nasty name calling against an 18 yo jewish girl who just wants to not have to use electricity on shavous, and a high school with the flexibility and tolerance to try to accommodate here, well I would say that comes close to qualifying.</p>

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<p>“POIH’s lack of mastery of the English language should not make his position especially offensive”</p>

<p>No - his poor english makes it hard to see precisely what he is saying, which makes it difficult to respond to him. His manifest offensiveness detracts from what would otherwise be my inclination to try to overlook his poor english</p>

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<p>“POIH chose to focus his concern on a fairly minor religious issue over which people can agree to disagree”</p>

<p>they can agree to disagree over whether or not a HS accommodating a minor religious practice in a way that meets everyones needs is a craven concession to superstition, that shows the failure of education?</p>

<p>Er no, we cant agree to disagree over that. Thats a level of intolerance, ignorance, and bad faith that its NOT minor. What the young lady did was minor. What the OP said was NOT minor. </p>

<p>See your logic is precisely backward. If OP had contested a REAL abuse by a religion - censoring biology texts say - most would have supported him or at least respected him - we are reacting as we are precisely because what was involved was a minor religious issue and a reasonable accommodation.</p>

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<p>*However, in this case I don’t see how this girl’s faith has affected anyone else.
It does affect others as school have to bent rules to accomodate by taping her speech and playing at the graduation with her present in the ceremony. *</p>

<p>All the school did was provide a “religious accommodation” which is a sensible thing to do…and I think they may be legally bound to do so. Religious accommodations occur all the time…they make sense…and they are just “good practices.”</p>

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<p>Fine. But you need to understand that responding to offensive statements with mudslinging only weakens your own arguments.</p>

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<p>Religious accommodation has recently become a heavily loaded word. Many will interpret religious accommodation to include the teaching of creation science. Others to school prayer. Still others to wearing a full body veil in class. All highly contentious issues.</p>

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<p>Actually, what I am observing in many others’ posts, as well as stated myself, is that people are tolerant of POIH’s point of view to not following any religious faith. What I see, however, coming from POIH is that he is not tolerant of others’ faiths and refers to their beliefs with attacks on their belief systems in a derogatory way and complains that their belief systems impacted others (such as those who attended the graduation).</p>

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<p>Here is a good example of your intolerance to call a young Orthodox Jew “diseased mentality.” </p>

<p>She is allowed to talk at graduation. There are no laws against her talking. Her graduation day landed on a religious holiday. The observance of that holiday, under the laws of her bible, stipulate not using electronic devices. So, she could speak but not be amplified on that particular holiday as that holiday was being observed. This was easily accommodated by recording her speech. She did not ask anyone to change the graduation date because it landed on her holiday. How did her observance of the customs of her holiday observance impact others or “hold our society back?”</p>

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<p>While such practices are not ones of my own religion, I would respect the rights of a girl to practice those beliefs. I don’t believe every American should be required to follow one set of religious views/beliefs that people such as yourself deem to not be “diseased.”</p>

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<p>That’s completely unnecessary. POIH’s daughter has nothing to do with this and she may be a perfectly lovely young lady.</p>

<p>POIH, the school didn’t HAVE to accommodate her by taping her speech and playing it. They CHOSE to, because they saw it as a clever win-win solution. How does the school CHOOSING to do something make a mockery? </p>

<p>MIT CHOOSES to offer kosher (and halal) dining facilities. Are they making a mockery of the educational system by doing so? Should they be told not to, because kosher / halal rules are just silly superstitions? I understand the viewpoint that they are, but I also don’t see what’s the big deal about a reasonable accommodation.</p>

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<p>I have uncovered POIH’s religion…it’s the religion of Rankings…he’s an orthodox devotee and believer.</p>

<p>POIH is superstitious…this is the same guy who got his panties in a bunch when his darling D’s fancy prep school didn’t get a top ranking. </p>

<p>Rankings can be rather subjective, based on opinions, etc…</p>

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<p>Umm…I have the guts to say that I would have no problem with that (provided her animal sacrifices did not violate local health codes). </p>

<p>You have something against animal sacrifices or the sun god?</p>

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<p>I have said before, and this thread illustrates very well:</p>

<p>POIH= Provocateur Of Ivy Hope</p>

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<p>"Fine. But you need to understand that responding to offensive statements with mudslinging only weakens your own arguments. "</p>

<p>I think i have offered much substance and have tried to avoid “I dont need to listen to you cause you are dumb” kinds of posts.</p>

<p>Usually I like to keep tone civil as well - in this instance I think a moderate degree of harshness of tone is warranted, and does not make my responses mudslinging.</p>

<p>If any of my responses are not like that, please point them out to me.</p>

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One would think that “JamesMadison” would know that these activities are protected under the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. E.g., Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah, 508 U.S. 520 (1993).</p>

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<p>"Religious accommodation has recently become a heavily loaded word. Many will interpret religious accommodation to include the teaching of creation science. Others to school prayer. Still others to wearing a full body veil in class. All highly contentious issues. "</p>

<p>then go start a thread on those topics. </p>

<p>Though in fact, IIUC, religious accommodation has a specific meaning under the religious freedom restoration act.</p>

<p>Anyway, Im not sure the school here was trying to follow the act, or just trying to be decent human beings (we would say “being mentshlich”) and helping out a student.</p>

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<p>I have to believe that the language gap is an issue here. POIH really seems to think he’s arguing something different from what basically every single native English speaker reading this thread thinks is being argued. How else can you explain this:</p>

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<p>First, you equated religious adherence and superstition. Then you said that it is the job of education to rid students of those superstitious beliefs and that anyone that still adheres to superstition isn’t truly educated. This clearly implies that anyone that is religious isn’t truly educated. It’s simply not true that your posts in this thread have nothing to do with anyone’s beliefs.</p>

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<p>So, is it your belief that the practice of Orthodox Judaism should be made illegal? I mean, that’s one way to make sure this young lady never does anything like this again. Perhaps she should be forced to wear a tank top and shorts, too, or to use electricity on the Sabbath.</p>

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<p>“Religious accommodation has recently become a heavily loaded word. Many will interpret religious accommodation to include the teaching of creation science. Others to school prayer. Still others to wearing a full body veil in class. All highly contentious issues.”</p>

<p>Except the teaching of creation science IMPACTS OTHERS. Having school-sponsored prayer (e.g., to Jesus Christ every morning over the loudspeaker) IMPACTS OTHERS. What this girl did did not impact others.</p>

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I understand the other examples are controversial. But assuming it is not a safety issue, why should this be contentious? Becauuse it violates a dress code? If there is some school which allows all manner of strange garb for students, or T-shirts with expletives or political statements, I see no reason why they should ban a full body veil. I’m assuming we’re talking about the students and not the teacher - the teacher should probably not be wearing things which might distract from the lesson. But kids do all the time. Back in my day I was a lot more distracted by young ladies wearing mini-skirts in school than I would have been by someone in a veil.</p>

<p>Would you also ban the wearing of a cross or other religious symbol?</p>