They do in French schools, but we don’t live in France.</p>
<p>I’m still a bit stuck on why POIH thinks that the arrangement made a mockery of the graduation. Suppose the student had laryngitis or something and had to have some else give the speech or use a recording from a rehearsal? A similar arrangement would have been made. I’m just not seeing the harm.</p>
<p>By the way there is plenty of intrusion of religion into public life that really bugs me - prayers before football games and the like. But this doesn’t seem to me to fall into that category at all.</p>
<p>But this particular issue is really nothing like putting creationism into the classroom. If there’s a scale where 1 = offer kosher options in the cafeteria and 10 = teach creationism instead of evolution in a public school classroom, this is more akin to 1 than to 10.</p>
<p>POIH, how is this substantially any different from MIT accommodating Jewish students by offering kosher dining options?</p>
Yeah, I don’t really get that. I don’t think that’s overbearing personal expression.</p>
<p>This is not in response to mathmom, just general commentary -
I do agree that creationism, etc. has no place in the science classroom. I didn’t know pushing for that was so pervasive. If there are questions abvout the theory of evolution they should be posed from a scientific method perspective.</p>
<p>But I don’t see how you can teach some other subjects, history for example, without at least teaching something *** about *** religion. Like it or not, it is a big part of the human experience.</p>
<p>Actually, I see no problem with a teacher wearing a veil. She would probably explain it on the first day of class to satisfy the students’ curiosity, and that would be the end of it. </p>
<p>I’ve no problem with people showing up to work with ashes, dot, **swastika **or some other indication on their forehead as long as they do their jobs.</p>
<p>Swastika on their forehead??? Ok…my tolerance would stop there…that is just a hate symbol and I would have a problem with that.</p>
<p>I think the issue with that one comes not with the veil (as in covering of the hair) but in the covering of the face. For whatever reason, covering of the face has a completely different connotation compared with merely covering the hair. I felt in in spades when traveling Saudi Arabia for business - I covered my hair but my face was left uncovered, but I was one of the very few women I saw who did the same. The vast majority of women covered everything but their eyes, even when they were alone in a room of women.</p>
Yeah, it wouldn’t be a big deal to me. To clarify -I was more thinking of it being a distraction becuase it might make it difficult to hear, and I wonder how much facial expression or body language actually influences the transfer of information, particularly with students who aren’t used to that type of garb. I havn’t been around that many people with full body veils, so I don’t know.</p>
<p>Another interesting aspect of POIH’s argument is his belief that somehow the “rules” were being bent to accommodate the young woman’s religious practice, and that this violation of the “rules” is what “makes a mockery” of the education system. He has made up an imaginary rule, and ascribed enormous transgressive meaning to any deviation from that rule. In point of fact, there was likely no rule at all until this situation came along, and the rule adopted for it is perfectly consistent with normal American practices, i.e., accommodation of religious identity on a neutral basis where the degree of interference with anyone else is slight and there is no reasonable implication that the particular religious practice is being endorsed prescriptively for the entire community. </p>
<p>The decision to accommodate was a judgment call; it is clear from the story that the young woman did not expect or even ask for the accommodation. I don’t know that anyone would have complained bitterly if the school had not accommodated her. But it’s hard to see why the decision to accommodate her should be viewed as undermining the very nature of education.</p>
<p>POIH could have just as easily directed his spleen at a graduation speaker wishing the graduates “good luck” (much less “God bless”). Talk about endorsement of non-rational superstitious beliefs! His focus on accommodation of an ethnic/cultural minority practice which may or may not be based in non-rational belief gives an ugly cast to his argument to which he seems curiously insensitive.</p>
<p>The bigger issue is why is the girl even at the graduation if her goal (as admitted) was to put her beliefs first? Shavuot is a High Holy Sabbath and such attendance according to Scripture is forbidden. She should be attending Knesset, reading Scriptures, singing Psalms, praying, partaking of Kiddush, etc… When schools have had graduations falling on Shavuot, observant Jews don’t attend the graduation. Period! That is why many school districts are careful not to schedule graduation during Shavuot. But instead of keeping Shavuot as the written Torah prescribes she goes to the graduation but keeps the traditions of the elders by abstaining from electricity and using a microphone which is not prohibited on any Sabbath unless one is using a microphone in connection with any of the prohibitions. </p>
<p>It seems that the girl wanted her cake and eat it too! She was valedictorian of her class and did not want to miss an important event. At the same time, she is giving lip service to a faith by following traditions she obviously does not understand. The sad part is the real observant Jews in her class who really cared about their beliefs stayed home while she got her award.</p>
<p>The only really appropriate thing to do in order to reconcile her faith with her actions, would have been to ask for the graduation to be rescheduled for another day that would not conflict with Shavuot. The conflict did probably not dawn on her until she knew she was valedictorian at which point it was certainly too late to ask the school.</p>
<p>I recently attended my daughter’s college graduation.</p>
<p>The usual walking route from my daughter’s off-campus apartment to the university stadium involves walking up a steep dirt path with often-muddy wooden steps that have no rails. I have a bad knee, and there is no way that I could walk that route safely. Without even being asked, my daughter planned a different walking route for me that took about 10 minutes longer but involved no steep steps or slippery paths.</p>
<p>I didn’t need any help from the university to attend the graduation, but some other people with more serious mobility impairments did. The university set up a system to accommodate them by providing accessible transportation to the stadium and reserving seating for them in locations where they would not have to climb stairs.</p>
<p>Do you object to these sorts of accommodations, too?</p>
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<p>The descriptions in the newspapers suggest that this particular student is not as strictly observant as some other Jewish students might be and that she is still learning some of the practices of her faith – which does not seem unreasonable, given that she did not grow up in an observant family. If she erred in her decision, it may have been due to her still-developing understanding of the practices of her faith rather than a “have your cake and eat it” mentality.</p>
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<p>One would hope that if there are any students in her class who would be unable to attend graduation because of a conflict with their level of observance of the religious holiday, they would have pointed out the problem early in the school year, when it was still possible to change the date.</p>
<p>Exactly. Rather like our high school’s graduation ceremony, in which “the rule” that students walk up a few stairs to the stage to receive their diploma and then walk back down them was waived for one student in a wheelchair for whom a little ramp was put into place. It’s reasonable accommodation, impacts no one, and the type of people who would complain are whiners.</p>
<p>A) How do you know she didn’t consult with her LOR (local Orthodox rabbi)?
B) Do you <em>really</em> want the state (in this case the school) deciding whether she practices her Judaism “well enough” or whether she’s a “good enough” Jew? After all, if you give them that power, then they can tell her (or any Jewish student) preemptively to stay home, graduation’s not for you.</p>
<p>Orthodox Jews at MIT, and Harker students writing about religious freedom. Clearly, the sky is falling. ;)</p>
<p>cellerdweller, no, there is nothing in halacha that forbids attending a graduation. The rules for chag (jewish holy days) differ from those for Shabbat, and are generally less strict. For example, religiously observant Jews don’t cook on Shabbat, but cooking on chag is allowed. </p>
<p>The holiday is traditionally observed starting with a study session on the first night of the holiday. Ideally, it lasts all night, and is fueled by cheesecake and blintzes. In reality, most make it to 12 or 1. One then attends services in the morning at shul/synagogue. Beit Knesset is the hebrew term for synagogue, but “Knesset” by itself refers to Israel’s legislative body, and Knesset is not in session on Jewish religious holidays. Jews do not use the term “Scriptures”–we read from the torah and haftorah (which are parts of the bible), and we study from those and also from the Talmud. Whatever singing of psalms and praying takes place can take place in the morning, leaving time for an afternoon graduation.</p>
<p>There are some highly observant Jews who would say that going to an event like graduation is not in keeping with the spirit of the holiday, or that it violates halacha (Jewish religious law). Just because others observe to a stricter standard does not invalidate the standards of other Jews, or of other branches of Judaism.</p>
<p>no, cellardweller, the bigger issue is why you or anyone else cannot understand that an individual’s religious beliefs are theirs – and it is not your place, a school’s place, or any one else’s place to tell them whether their sincerely held level of religious observance has reached the appropriate level as to warrant respect. religious observances is a continuum, not a black and white line. it is NO ONE’s place to try to paint such a black and white line to define the appropriateness of someone else’s sincerely held religious beliefs and practices.</p>
<p>"The bigger issue is why is the girl even at the graduation if her goal (as admitted) was to put her beliefs first? Shavuot is a High Holy Sabbath and such attendance according to Scripture is forbidden. "</p>
<p>Tell me where it says so. In the bible. OR in the Talmud. OR in the Shulchan aruch</p>
<p>“She should be attending Knesset”</p>
<p>why, was she elected? If she was, tell her that the times DEMAND a broad coalition govt, and anyone who says otherwise is a poopyhead.</p>
<p>If you mean a Beit Knesset, no one in the USA calls a synagogue that in English. have you been reading wiki again?</p>
<p>"reading Scriptures, singing Psalms, praying, partaking of Kiddush, etc… "</p>
<p>Standard shavout service at my shul takes a couple of hours - where do YOU daven? It would be easy to work around it. I can also “partake” of kiddush really fast when its needed. Are you part of the “slow jew” movement?</p>
<p>“When schools have had graduations falling on Shavuot, observant Jews don’t attend the graduation.” </p>
<p>You completely misread my post. I make no argument as to what the state or school should do and certainly not that they should intervene in her decision. I just question how SHE arrived at her decision to attend her graduation while 99% of Orthodox Jews would have opted on their own not to attend.</p>
<p>To the extent it is not motivated by simple cultural chauvinism and xenophobia, criticism of the veil in France centers around two arguments: (1) Hiding the face severely affects the ability of citizens to communicate with one another. They can’t read expressions, which changes the nature of the exchange. Therefore society as a whole is harmed if some members choose to veil their faces. (2) Veiling reflects a view that women should be kept separate from the mainstream of public interaction, and that women should be subject to restrictions not imposed on men (and vice versa, although these are not so obvious). That is so profoundly at odds with core French values that the state must reject it clearly. (Notwithstanding, of course, that gender equality has been a core French value for maybe half a generation, at most.) The discussion is influenced by some other factors, including: (a) The French have a long history of forced, sometimes brutal assimilation of cultural minorities, much more so than any other European country. While some of the French may not approve of that, the net result is very widely popular – they tend to be proud of the fact that they do not have the kinds of regional differences and tensions that you find in Spain, Italy, Germany, and even Great Britain. (b) The French have a long history of engagement with the Muslim world in the Maghreb, Syria, and Lebanon, where I believe heavy veiling was not such a common practice. The current vogue for heavy veiling is pretty much associated with Salafist and Wahhabist proselytism originating in (and financed by) Saudi Arabia. I think the French experience it as not authentic to “their” Muslims, and as a modern innovation, not a time-honored tradition.</p>
<p>I did not read anthing to suggest that the school assessed the strength of her beliefs. Much less any suggestion that she not attend. The school made an accommodation.</p>
<p>But, I must say that if to be truly observant she should have chosen not to attend at all, then the spin that she chose beliefs over the speach loses credibility. Question? Can the LOC give some sort of dispensation? If she could attend, could she also give the speach?</p>
<p>"You completely misread my post. I make no argument as to what the state or school should do and certainly not that they should intervene in her decision. I just question how SHE arrived at her decision to attend her graduation while 99% of Orthodox Jews would have opted on their own not to attend. "</p>
<p>a. I doubt your number, unless you live in brooklyn or Rockland county NY</p>
<p>b. She made it by consulting HER rabbi, whose outlook orientation she shares, and weighing the halachic (jewish legal) considerations involved, and what the graduation meant to her. Since she attended PUBLIC school as the most strictly orthodox never do, we can start with that she was at the liberal end of Orthodoxy (even if she was a baal tshuva and because of her parents could not make her school choice on her own) It seems she is a follower, at least so some degree of chabad - which though ultraorthodox in their theology, is VERY adept at and willing to accommodate to the modern world, in order to be more attractive to the non-0rthodox.</p>
<p>I could very well imagine a chabad rabbi explaining to her exactly how to attend the graduation while remaining within Orthodox halacha.</p>
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