@Joblue, at Ivy league schools, the activities are often underwritten by the school or $$ are available to those who need it. The key difference here is that each member has to fund the dues. It’s just not the same.
Not trying to discredit women’s suffrage.
The point is that contrary to the assertion of some posters, being a feminist or part of the feminist movement…especially in the first wave doesn’t mean one was necessarily progressive.
The split within the Pankhurst family epitomized the mixed record early feminism in the first wave had regarding progressivism. And the split involved some regressive views and actions…some of which were considered reprehensible even during their own time.
Agree with @NotVerySmart as well. Of course some women in sororities are feminists (although I thought that was considered a “bad word” among the young today), And of course they blame the older women who run the nationals for some of the old rules (made me feel really old). It is not surprising that Ivy league sorority girls are reading high level books on the beach. But it is still an exclusionary club. You are not admitted by lottery. Following links in the bwog post above, I found this:
http://columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2016/01/24/why-i-said-sayonara-sororities
In theory, a sorority is a great display of sisterhood and women coming together to support each other. In the real world, not so sure this is true.
There’s a distinction here. Suggesting that a girl might not want to sleep with a new boy every week, and telling her there’s a classier world, is giving advice. Actively demeaning her as a person is slut-shaming. I wouldn’t want to be in a frat known for dumb guys, and I’d suggest focusing on academics than on beer pong if a frat brother asked my advice, but I also wouldn’t defend branding the members of Alpha Generic Fraternity as “slow” (which I use in lieu of a far nastier word).
I feel that a sorority that welcomes all women, with the caveat that any woman who can’t afford $2000+ in membership fees needn’t bother to rush, shouldn’t be telling the NYT how progressive it is. The article acknowledges these issues in general terms, but doesn’t include much discussion of them in the case of the main example, choosing instead to hold Theta up as a “model sorority.” I see a lack of journalistic balance. Others are free to disagree.
Not at my kid’s not-Ivy college, all that plus rental gear is included. Such activities are very deliberately made free for all specifically so that kids on FA can participate along with everyone else.
Not every school has the budget for this or, perhaps more accurately, not every school makes that a budget priority. Those that do are saying something about the culture they’d like to have.
Depends on the individual and groups and not necessarily just anti-feminists.
For instance, some women who are non-White and/or working-class/indigent may not want to label themselves such because they associate mainstream feminist movements as being concerned mainly/solely with concerns of upper/upper-middle class White women.
This factor prompted the founding of movements like the womanists or the creation of third wave feminism.
“Not at my kid’s not-Ivy college, all that plus rental gear is included. Such activities are very deliberately made free for all specifically so that kids on FA can participate along with everyone else, not every school makes that a budget priority.”
Right. And even in the absence of university funding, groups can choose to fundraise rather than assess dues on their members. Members of my a cappella group had to provide their own performance clothing, but no dues; the tours, recording sessions, road trips, etc. were all paid for by the group. Our ski tour cost us $25 each and we earned the rest. Clubs that care about this will subsidize members on FA if they have to. If they don’t subsidize the costs, then it isn’t important to them to include students who can’t afford it.
I only want to add that when I referred to Ivy League schools providing funding for activities it was only to match the article’s emphasis on Ivy League schools.
I wholeheartedly agree with both @OHMomof2 and @Hanna that there are many schools that underwrite costs of participation in school clubs and that a decision to do so indicates the type of culture they are trying to create. It’s also revealing when a club on its own fundraises to make sure all its members can participate equally or decides not to make funds available to those that cannot afford the costs.
I’ve got to say, in this day and age of worrying about income levels after college and the costs of covering college in the first place, I am a little surprised college people are attracted to frats and sororities more than they were in the 00’s, 90’s, 80’s or 70’s.
"It is not surprising that Ivy league sorority girls are reading high level books on the beach. But it is still an exclusionary club. You are not admitted by lottery. "
Any friendship group is. There are girls I might have wanted to befriend, who I saw as the cool girls, whatever. And I could go and try to talk to them, but at the end of the day they were not obligated to invite me to dinner, to go out with them, go get coffee, etc. That is how life works. People you desire to be friends with are not obligated to include you. Are you friends with everyone you know? Have you invited every single person you’ve ever met at a PTA meeting or whose kid played soccer with your kid out to dinner? Or did you just realize you click with some people and not with others?
It isn’t quite analogous. I have become friends with unlikely people over time and after repeated interactions. In other words we got to know each other. The sorority thing seems to be based on quick, superficial interactions that occur without knowing much at all about the person. How would you really know if you click with someone after meeting her for 10 minutes? Or even an hour? You might but there’s an equally good chance that you are making a snap judgment that turns out to be quite wrong. I have made such snap judgments and later laughed at how wrong I was.
My daughter chose not to rush so there may be more to it. Perhaps there an application and are there particular qualities that appeal to different sororities. Perhaps there is a more exhaustive and lengthy process than what seems to be. Certainly there are clubs that require a long period of participation and a chance to get to know others before making the membership permanent. If that’s the case, it makes more sense to me. If there are girls cut after the first hour of rush, I cannot equate forming friendships with accepting sorority sisters.
In the main nyt picture, one woman is wearing a $1,000 Hermès belt. I looked up their instagrams. They’re open, they have tens of thousands of followers, lots of bikini pictures in exotic locations.
For feminists they seem awfully desperate to show skin for attention. And for serious academics (at an Ivy) they seem to find plenty of time for jet-setting.
Let’s not delve into the “If they show skin how can they be feminists” line of argument. Nothing good lies there.
A better question IMO is whether these girls are taking action to help women outside their sorority, or whether this good, pure, enlightened feminist sorority limits its efforts to those who can afford the dues. Surely their responsibility as feminists is to help all women - regardless of membership in an exclusive/exclusionary club.
@ 52,
Well, there was that canned food drive that required an intense effort on the part of the frat or sorority members. They not only had to buy the canned food they had to put them into cardboard boxes and take the boxes to the poor people. That was a huge commitment. Seriously. Huge.
Agreed.
I also find the equating of fraternities/sororities to friendship groups quite odd considering some chapter sizes can be on the large side and the fact one may not necessarily be friends with everyone in one’s chapter. This was certainly the case with friends and relatives who were fraternity/sorority members including those who served in senior leadership positions in their chapter.
From where I stand, fraternities/sororities are no different from any student campus organization/EC…except for the social exclusivity factors used in selecting rush pledges with some and how the high expense of dues memberships effectively means most from lower income backgrounds are effectively excluded.
@NotVerySmart they’re not feminists. they’re pretentious rich girls pretending to be lena dunham/emma watson.
"The sorority thing seems to be based on quick, superficial interactions that occur without knowing much at all about the person. How would you really know if you click with someone after meeting her for 10 minutes? Or even an hour? "
It’s really no different from other interactions. I’m sure people “met” me in a classroom or hanging out at the dorm lounge or whatever and decided they didn’t want to get to know me better, for whatever reason I wasn’t their type. And vice versa. Same difference.
And if I knew now that the body I had at 18 wouldn’t be forever, I’d have rocked a bikini every place I could have. With documentation. Nothing wrong with being young and cute.
“Surely their responsibility as feminists is to help all women - regardless of membership in an exclusive/exclusionary club.”
Weren’t you the one who chastised them for slut-shaming - implying that true feminists can be sluts if they want to? So I’m confused. What does a feminist have to do? Spend her days advocating for all women, or angling over who she’s going to bed next?
I’m going to address the friendship vs. pledging thing one more time just to be absolutely clear that I’m conveying what I intend to convey.
Friendships are made over time. i might meet someone in a class, smile and walk on and that’s that. Or I might meet that person again in my dorm or at a club meeting or in a different class. Maybe we’d have mutual friends. Maybe we’d get to know each other better. It’s not a practice of mine to meet people casually and decide at that moment that I have no interest in getting to know that person further. and ruling them out
Sorority pledging is based on a one time quick and superficial interaction during which immediate decisions are made. It’s not based on musical ability or sports agility or even intellectual promise. It’s based on how someone looks and how that person behaves in a social setting during a very short period.
If it suits you, that’s certainly your choice. But let’s be clear, it’s not the same difference at all.
I think you are very clear, @3girls3cats . I’ve become friends with people I didn’t immediately click with, and I’ve clicked with people at first who it later turned out I didn’t care much for. Most of my friendships are built on a combination of initial impression and one formed over time and I think most people would agree that’s the way it works.