<p>Hi, all. Long-time reader, first time poster. I finally have something to ask, so here goes: I was wondering where high-achieving but highly-disadvantaged students interested in science should go to school when the best (and most rigorous) school offers the best aid by far. </p>
<p>I want to give advice to a friend, but I’m stumped myself. The scenario’s a sticky situation.</p>
<p>I don’t follow. Want to try that one again? I’m fine until the “when”. Then I lose touch with what the question is. ;)</p>
<p>I’ve got a way to break through my fog - Define best aid, highly-disadvantaged, and high-achieving.</p>
<p>Do the students in question not want to go to one of the top schools that offer good aid? For example, Harvard, Amherst, Yale, Duke and others offer free rides for families below a certain income ( I think it’s 60,000 at Harvard, I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong) . It seems from your post that maybe they don’t want to go to these types of school? Elite schools seem to be actively seeking high achieving low income students. Have you or your friend looked into the Questbridge program?</p>
<p>I would encourage the student to apply to schools that offer great need-based aid even though they are highly selective. I’d also suggest some excellent schools which are known to give great merit aid: Duke, WashU, Case Western; the University of Rochester. Also look into the Honors programs of some public schools such as UMich (which has rolling admissions). Some schools give a free ride to NM Finalists. Check these out.</p>
<p>By high achieving, I mean rare valedictorian with an upwards 2100+ SAT, and by highly disadvantaged I mean a weak rural high school that offers no advanced or honors courses, and no opportunity to take CC courses; where students that care to graduate and go to college generally score in the low 1200 of the SAT w/ WR. We’re talking about a bright student with terrible preparation. The student could get into a highly selective college, but might suffer because of their lack of preparation – especially in a rigorous science/engineering curriculum.</p>
<p>What advice would you give? Go to the best school with the no-loans full-grant ride, or a less competitive one without a full merit?</p>
<p>I had one of those. LOL. (Though not quite to that extent.) They can go anywhere they want to (within the obvious limitations we all have). They won’t be limited by their rural school. They can tell a compelling story. Use what you have. JMO, but it sure worked for my kid. </p>
<p>I thought by highly-disadvantaged you meant “dirt poor, had to send money back from college to feed the family”. Disadvantaged by a crap high school? Don’t sweat that too much. Just be sure the limitations of the school are made clear in a school report. If the school doesn’t provide one- you provide one.</p>
<p>Why not go to a state public university for two years? It’s a chance to mature academically, get most of the general education requirements out of the way, and save a lot of money. If he finds success there, he can either stay or transfer to a more academically challenging environment and transfer those general ed. requirements credits with him.</p>
<p>I would just worry about the student floundering under a really competitive and rigorous science program. It’s distressing.</p>
<p>One of my best friends from college fits that profile. She was extremely unprepared when she got to college - to this day she still tells stories about how bad her HS was. She worked like crazy her first 2 years. Being naturally bright and a hard worker is how she survived. She majored in a science, got a PhD from another Ivy, and is now a highly respected scientist with numerous patents. </p>
<p>If the student is a hard worker and determined to succeed, it can be done. S/he may not get As in the beginning, so being prepared for Cs is important. S/he must be prepared to start a step behind (taking calculus freshman year, for example, starting at a lower level science class). It might be prudent to talk to people at the school, find out what type of support is available. Different schools might offer different types of tutoring help. I know a pre-med student who opted to take organic chemistry over the summer at the nearby state university as one way to ease into the tough curriculum.</p>
<p>If s/he is a slacker - gets high grades without any studying - then I might be concerned. </p>
<p>I think many kids who come from competitive high schools end up dropping out of pre-med and engineering. It’s not just the ones from small rural schools.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>:eek: </p>
<p>LOL. I think I must be totally on some totally different page. There’s no way a val kid with a 2100+ is going to need to start slow anywhere. At least we can’t presume that from what we have here. Can we? If she hasn’t had calc, start with calc. If she hasn’t had AP bio , start with the first bio for science majors. Heck, start with the first bio anyway. A number of schools prefer the AP kids to do so if they are Bio majors. </p>
<p>If she was a val with a 1650, I’m with you but jeez. Let’s not give her an inferiority complex. This a test smart , motivated kid from humble beginnings. That’s all I think we can know. </p>
<p>I repeat. She can go anywhere and succeed. Just got to get her in the door and please, goodness gracious, don’t put artificial roadblocks or even speedbumps of someone else’s expectation of who she is in her way. Winners will find a way to win. </p>
<p>They tasked her with a challenge and she has excelled throughout her high school career. When up against the finest boarding school kids, the finest suburban kids, the best magnet kids, she kicked (many of) their rear-ends on a supposedly meaningful nation-wide test. </p>
<p>What exactly has she got to worry about? The salad fork?</p>
<p>Curm–it’s not that simple (unfortunately for us.) I had two somewhat underprepared “high achievers” with sky high SATs, who went to very selective colleges. Number one worked like a dog to make up for deficiencies (in her gov classes, she and a friend from rural Midwestern school would leave each class and go the library to read up on all the unfamiliar names, theories, schools of thought, etc, that the rest of the class was throwing around.) She graduated in the top 20% of her class. Number two, in an even more rigorous school, coming in with the higher SATs and a number 7 rank, has had a checkered career. Not a “sheer hard work” type, unfortunately. Grades are either at the top of the class, or, um, not, depending on a ton of factors not worth going into (broadly: interest or not, some awful HS teachers, personal issues, maybe bad karma). </p>
<p>Take home message: it depends on the kid. Some underprepared souls will thrive (my D), some will not always get to where they should be (my S). Know your kid.</p>
<p>First question: is this student already holding acceptances in hand? Is it a senior who has applied but has not heard back from some/all? </p>
<p>I think it is possible that a rural high school with no Honors or AP classes could leave this student well-prepared for college OR under-prepared, depending on other parts of the high school experience. Were there one or two or more teachers there who took this student under their wings? Did the student learn to write well and analyze? Has this student taken SATIIs? If so, what scores in the math/sciences - that might tell us something more about the prep?</p>
<p>I think this student could figure out a lot by visiting some of the schools, attending science classes and meeting with some faculty/admissions counselors. S/he will know if the science courses leave her feeling like she is drowning. The faculty/admissions people will probably know if s/he will struggle and/or whether their academic support services will be all that is needed (if needed at all).</p>
<p>S/he also may want to pay attention to the atmosphere among the students - are their conversations heavily focused on grades and GPA? Does the atmosphere seem mutually supportive academically?</p>
<p>But garland, what data do we have to make any assumptions of inferiority? That’s my point. (And I’m serious. What data? Point it out to me, please.) As I said
</p>
<p>Maybe she’ll be the one teaching them new concepts they haven’t heard of at their high school</p>
<p>My wife was a high performer (but not the valedictorian, or even close to it) at a crappy rural high school. She went to Yale, felt horribly under-prepared (which she was), thought everyone knew 100 times more than she did, fretted, etc. She worked really, really hard to make certain she was learning what she was supposed to. She loved it and graduated summa cum laude.</p>
<p>momoftoomany, I really don’t know if you are the best person to be advising this child. This is very painful to read
My gosh. I’m glad no one said they worried about that to my rural 2 AP’s at high school val. (She self-studied BC.) She might not be nominated for a Goldwater this year. 
Give this kid a chance, too.</p>
<p>I agree with Curmudgeon. The high SAT scores despite a not so great high school education indicate a student who “can” handle a rigorous college. If he is up for the challenge, PLEASE do not hold him back. Encourage him, instead!</p>
<p>I understand what Garland is saying about it being different for each child. In this case, though, I get the feeling the child wants to go to the rigorous school. I think the parent should be behind the young man, encouraging him to reach for his dreams & giving him the support he needs. Don’t forget that getting a top notch education is more important than getting a 4.0.</p>
<p>if your friend is a she, she might want to check out smith. High percentage of Pell Grant recipients (so she wouldn’t feel so alone with a bunch of rich kids), good science programs (first women’s college to offer engineering; new molecular science building under construction).</p>
<p>There’s information here [Despite</a> Surging Endowments, High-Ranking Universities and Colleges Show Disappointing Results in Enrolling Low-Income Students](<a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/features/57_pellgrants.html]Despite”>Despite Surging Endowments, High-Ranking Universities and Colleges Show Disappointing Results in Enrolling Low-Income Students) about colleges that do and don’t enroll a lot of low-income students.</p>
<p>My high school only offered 2 AP’s, and only 40% of students who graduate go on to college. I was accepted to Harvard, currently majoring in engineering, and I’m doing just fine right now.</p>
<p>Many of the “most rigorous” colleges have excellent advising and support for the students who need it (but the student has to take initiative and go to tutoring/office hours/ etc.).</p>
<p>This is a more legitimate concern than the OP is getting credit for. Remember, we are talking about someone headed to a math and science degree. At some top colleges in this area, numerous AP’s are the norm for entering students. I think the typical MIT frosh has 4-6 AP’s from high school. Caltech REQUIRES a year of calculus before starting. Even these students find M and C to be extremely challenging. Someone with a much weaker background, no matter how bright and hard working, could be in trouble. Since the math and science knowledge is cumulative, a student could be completely lost from day one. Trying to absorb a year of calculus on the side during the first week of class while the course uses that as the starting point. Trying to keep up in physics when the course is paced for people who already have a very solid background in the field…</p>
<p>So I suppose it depends on what you mean by “most rigorous”, and whether this college often enrolls students with comparable backgrounds.</p>
<p>The SAT does not measure educational attainment. If you take a talented kid and stick them in a weak high school, you can easily get someone with high SAT’s, but not much education. </p>
<p>As a practical matter. Use the SAT2’s and AP’s to get an idea where they stand. Talk to the admissions offices at the colleges. If the student has SAT2 scores in range for the colleges, then they should be ok. If the SAT2’s are low, then, especially in quantitative fields, it could be a problem.</p>
<p>The tech colleges do routinely enroll lots of low-income high-achieving students, so being poor alone does not rule them out.</p>