<p>“Feminism, for me, has always meant the radical notion that women are people”</p>
<p>You and your radical ideas, romani.</p>
<p>By the way, you will probably agree with me that dogs are people too. Not cats (sorry cat lovers), but yes, dogs. 
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<p>For me, the carrying things/opening doors is a matter of helping people who need help, and not helping people who don’t need help. Men have much more upper body strength, on average, so it makes sense that men should do more of the lifting of heavy things. People who are burdened, like a dad with a stroller, a pregnant woman, a guy using a wheelchair or crutches, a elderly frail woman who appears to have mobility issues, or someone carrying packages or suitcases, should be offered help with door opening if it looks like they might need it. </p>
<p>I appreciate help with doors when I’m pushing my bike through a door, which tends to be a three-handed operation. Otherwise, I find it odd that someone would open a door for me when I’m perfectly capable of opening doors by myself-- it’s not like they are heavy. What is it that someone who opens a door for an able-bodied woman saying to/about her? “I should open doors for you because I’m a man and you’re a woman”? But why? “It’s just courtesy”? But why?</p>
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<p>The definition of feminism is not irrelevant. You and your daughters could not BE “modern, accomplished” women without the progress made in history by the feminist movement. You don’t get to stick your fingers in your ears and say “lalala” because you don’t like the word. Be sure you skip voting next week, since you don’t appreciate the sacrifices made for women over a 70 year period to try to get the vote for women. At one time your daughter likely would not have been allowed to attend whatever college she attend(s) because she was a woman. Pretending that these things somehow would have miraculously come to you without women pushing (and often being punished) for them is ridiculous. </p>
<p>The definition of feminism is:</p>
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<p>Can you list specific political, social, and economic areas where you would like your daughter to be treated as lesser than her male counterparts? I sure can’t think of any for my daughters…</p>
<p>This is what I tell my daughter. But she says we need a new word. She suggests she is a “humanist”. I say, “I’m glad you have that right.” </p>
<p>But, I think if we don’t acknowledge that otherwise bright and accomplished young women find certain elements distasteful, we aren’t paying attention. Do we need to pay attention? I don’t know. It’s not like my daughter would ever vote for someone who was anti woman’s rights. She is aware of the history. She just finds certain ideas at odds with her own. </p>
<p>I wonder if it matters. It might. </p>
<p>I am a humanist as well… but they are not the same thing. Maybe it is about educating them on history so they understand that “accomplished” in our age would not be possible without the sacrifices and struggles of the women before them. “Iron Jawed Angels” was required viewing in one of the American history classes that every one of the juniors in our kids’ high school took. It helped my daughters (and me) develop a deep appreciation for those women and what they went through.</p>
<p>I know. But what can you do? The kid makes six figures. She’s not looking for anyone to take care of her. I say "you are a feminist. ". She says she is not. </p>
<p>She’s very bright, but I can’t figure out what bugs her about it. It’s something to do with romantic love, though. This much I can ascertain. </p>
<p>poetgrl, I would be curious as to what she would define a feminist as, and what people she thinks are feminists. That may give you your answer.</p>
<p>“Okay, here’s my new version. If we were alive 100 years ago, those women who think they’d be on the front lines with Susan B----would fit my definition of a feminist.”
I would have been on the front lines, but I would still not ever be a feminist. I have been involved for decades in the rights of same sex couples to be married, I am currently involved in a specific men’s rights issue. I am who I am and will not be labeled by anyone but me.</p>
<p>Romani, the question of what the definition is for me is not offensive. It is irrelevant. I am not a feminist. You are, so your definition matters.</p>
<p>“You and your daughters could not BE “modern, accomplished” women without the progress made in history by the feminist movement. You don’t get to stick your fingers in your ears and say “lalala” because you don’t like the word”
My how disrespectful. Not defining oneself the way you seem to demand is very offensive to you. Why? </p>
<p>This is one of the reasons I will never be a feminist. The lack of respect and acceptance for women who are different or who make different choices. Too dogmatic, judgmental and boring.</p>
<p>“Can you list specific political, social, and economic areas where you would like your daughter to be treated as lesser than her male counterparts? I sure can’t think of any for my daughters…”
When you have to resort to building straw men and misrepresenting others’ positions, you have generally lost an argument.</p>
<p>@busdriver11 It’s not really the politics that bothers her. She just doesn’t identify with the social identity of a feminist. She doesn’t want to be "the same"as a man. the idea is offensive to her on some level. She thinks it’s not true and not only not true but not something she wants.</p>
<p>She thinks women and men are strong in different ways. She is grateful for the women who fought for equality, but she doesn’t think some of the social constructs are useful, to her. She hates the hook up culture. She doesn’t judge women involved in it, or men, but she hates the idea that sex can be divorced from love. For her this isn’t true. She doesn’t want to walk in high heels over ice without her guy grabbing her arm. She doesn’t want to drive her boyfriend on a date. She doesn’t want to ASK a guy on a date and she thinks the idea of pursuing a guy is just unnatural, to her. To her. </p>
<p>Also, she was told, early in college, by two separate professors, that she was not a feminist because of these things. So, she says, “feminists have told me I am not a feminist.” She really doesn’t care that much about it one way or the other. She wants to wear dresses and she doesn’t care if they don’t. But, she also wants to work.</p>
<p>She thinks that some feminists, not me, devalue a lot of things that are great about being a woman, and she disagrees with it. She has no interest in being more like a man than a woman, and she would disagree with anyone who says men are stronger than women, but she would also disagree with anyone who said they are not fundamentally very different. </p>
<p>Men and women ARE strong in different ways. But they deserve equal rights and equal opportunities. I don’t think that’s a particularly “feminist” point of view. It just seems fair. </p>
<p>Zoosermom said it better than I could have. I acknowledge and am very grateful for the work the women prior to me have undertaken to move us in the direction of equal opportunity. While the Websters definition of feminism represents the original meaning of the word, as is often the case, years history add, subtract and change the socially recognized meaning of terms. </p>
<p>My introduction to feminism was during the college years - 1977-1982, in the SF bay area. What I saw were very angry, judgmental, in your face, "you’re either with us or you’re against us’ representatives of the group. Not much has changed. Todays feminists insistent I feel outrage and anger at their identified war on woman. If I don’t particularly feel this waged war, and neither does my daughter or her friends, well…we are simply working against our own interests. Again the "you’re either with us or against us’ mentality remains. (Sorry folks, but current representative like Ms Fluke just make me cringe with embarrassment). </p>
<p>BTW…I would love for my DS to have equality with my D. He must register for Selective services when filling out the FAFSA, she must not. Anyone wish to add this to their D’s list of equal rights?</p>
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<p>I can’t see what is “straw man” or misrepresenting anything to ask what part of the definition of feminism you don’t support for your daughter. I genuinely want to know what part of that definition of feminism you don’t agree with.</p>
<p>Poetgrl, I agree with your daughter quite a bit. I became even more firm in my views after I had a son. My son is the joy of my life, but he isn’t as quantifiably spectacular as my daughters. I can see how hard it is for some boys in our society, and I work to make things better and more respectful for them. My d who is not a feminist, was an historical king for Halloween. She aspires to world domination.</p>
<p>intparent: The Websters definition is NOT what some of us associate with the term. The term has negative connotations for some of us. Not being willing to accept this difference is rather disturbing.</p>
<p>And, if we are doing straw men…Are you insisting your D’s register for selective services when filling out their FAFSA’s? </p>
<p>Wouldn’t have any problem with them doing so. And… making up your OWN definition is just an excuse. Not sure why it would be so hard for someone to say that they DO consider themselves feminists as the word is defined, but do not support some activities that people who label themselves feminists have engaged in. I just can’t see how a woman could not support that core definition. And am curious if anyone out here doesn’t support it for themselves and their daughters, and why.</p>
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<p>Women aren’t required to register for the Selective Service. But if you wonder whether I think they ought to be required to register, if young men are required to register-- Yes, I think so. American women are in combat roles right now. As they should be, if they are qualified and have volunteered for military service.</p>
<p>I do not agree with the draft for men so my equality vote on that one is to repeal the Selective Service for all sexes and genders.</p>
<p>poetgrl, your daughters view is interesting. I guess it’s all in perception, and apparently those two professors made quite an impression. I wouldn’t think the desire to wear dresses, heels or be feminine has anything to do with being a feminist, except for the fact that the words are so similar. It sounds like basically she thinks being a feminist is a woman wanting to be exactly like a man? I think it’s more of being equal to a man, but not the same. I think women should choose to dress and behave as they like. Maybe the problem is with labels, and whom she has identified as feminists.</p>
<p>Funny, I just got a birthday card for my mom that says, “Well behaved women rarely make history”. Seems appropriate.</p>
<p>I agree. I actually think those professors had an impact on her. Until then, she didn’t think she wasn’t a feminist. In my house, she was. But, the hook up culture thing seems to have been the sticking point, really. She wrote a paper about it, actually. I mean, I’ll give the professor credit. She gave her an A. But she said her ideas about sexuality and gender were not feminist. I don’t know. I suspect it’s less important than we probably think. </p>
<p>She’s a strong, independent young woman. She just doesn’t agree that sex is the same for young men and young women, and she cannot be convinced otherwise, and I really don’t think I’d try, anyway. </p>