@gallentjill – we all sometimes wonder about our choices, but along the way as parents I think the choices we made when our kids were young are much more impactful. If you have raised your child to be resilient, confident, level-headed … then you’ve given tools for long-term success. And those are the types of qualities that are probably instilled very early on. And of course it is not always so easy – kids each have their own personalities,some have learning differences or emotional health issues that are independent of and unrelated to parental skills – and of course parents are making all sorts of life choices which may or may not be best for their children’s development. But the point is - the choices you made when your kid was 5 might be a lot more important in the long run than the choice being made at age 17.
But I do think that in the end the choice of college is really little more than something that is part of the natural progression of everything that has come before. That is, successful outcomes post-college are largely tied to the inherent qualities that the student brought with them to the college.
That is why many of the elite colleges place great emphasis on qualities like “leadership.” They know they aren’t creating leaders-- they are educating students who have already established themselves as leaders. Now obviously they are also doing a good job for the most part of giving those students what they want and need … when the colleges aren’t able to rise to that challenge, the leader-type students sometimes simply get frustrated and leave, sans degree. (Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, etc.)
In any case I think that parental anxiety over college admission might just be displacement of all the other anxieties we have as our kids are nearing adulthood and getting ready to leave the nest. When I think the reality is that if the kid is even in a position to be applying to any colleges with competitive admissions, that family is already far ahead of the game.
You can go to the an elite college and graduate with a degree but it really comes down to what you do with it. What happened to getting the best education you can afford? It used to be about the education and now it is all about the ROI the name recognition can provide. Exceptionally bright students can easily graduate but if they lack the motivation to apply themselves after graduation they won’t succeed.
When my daughter was choosing, I asked if she wanted to be a good student at college A (elite college that attracts great students) or a great student at college B (very good mid range). She wanted to be amongst the great students knowing she would not stand out. She wanted the the education from both the school and the students attending it and she knew she would have to work her butt off. She was not disappointed and yes, she had to work her butt off.
"What happened to getting the best education you can afford? It used to be about the education and now it is all about the ROI the name recognition can provide. "
How can the cost/value not be a factor in what is - for many families at the top selectives - a $300k decision?
Pretty sure lightning is going to strike me or I’ll be killed by the hordes of idealogues, but I think it’s entirely reasonable that people consider the potential return on their investment. Does that mean cost, value and return are the only considerations? No. But unless you’re at the Let-Them-Eat-Cake wealth level, it would be remiss not to consider what your family receives for the amount of money that is going to be spent.
Can I be crude? Some kids (at least at the age of 18) are not worth “investing in” by mortgaging your future.
That doesn’t mean they aren’t terrific and lovable and worthy of your support and pride. But I see some of the crazy financial decisions that folks I know in real life are making and frankly- it’s a head-scratcher.
Not every lazy, charming, slacker type HS kid is going to magically wake up during Freshman year and become a hard-charging social justice warrior majoring in three strategic languages and international relations and heading off to a foreign service post. (Maybe yours will be, I don’t know). Some HS kids who are heavily invested in having a BF/GF in HS and who spend their leisure time hanging out, taking selfies, and driving aimlessly around town could become the next Albert Einstein once at that small and supportive private college which costs a fortune— or not.
You catch my drift. I see kids who are completely disinterested in anything representing intellectual engagement, or academics, or lacking any curiosity about the world- whether historical, artistic, political, mathematical, literary— and their parents are 'going to the mat" to pay for the watered down version of a top private college (watered down because the kid didn’t have the academic chops to get into the Pomona/Amherst/Bowdoin type places). They fear that if that kid heads off to random public “used to be a state teacher’s college but is now a university kinda/sorta” the kid will fall off track.
And perhaps they are right. Intellectual engagement can happen anywhere at any time, and so hoping and HELOC’ing and praying that with the right professor at the right moment the kid will come alive- wow, wouldn’t that be great. But I do know many of these kids once they graduate, and they spent four years partying and being social chair of their fraternity/sorority, and now they are college graduates. Whoo-hoo. Could have been a LOT less expensive for whatever they got out of the experience, but it’s too late now and the loans start to come due.
I still say it’s the kid and not the institution. A go-getter with a lot of interests and ambition and drive is likely going to make it work wherever he or she ends up. And some of the slackers do get it eventually. And some are happy to coast.
^^^^Where are all these “slacker” kids who are getting into prestigious colleges? The kids I know that are going to H, WashU, Vandy, BU, USC, UCLA, etc have been working very hard for many, many years (certainly a lot harder than my generation who went to top colleges). I don’t think we give this generation of students enough credit…
I don’t know any slackers going to Wash U and the schools you’ve mentioned. That’s YOUR interpretation, these kids do not go to “prestigious” colleges. Parents mortgage the house for Hofstra because the SUNY’s are too big. Parents take on huge loans for Adelphi because their kid would get lost at one of the CUNY schools which would cost a fraction. Parents raid the retirement fund for Pace because U Conn Stamford is a “suitcase school”.
@blossom My mistake, I thought we were talking about “prestige” colleges on this thread…I agree with you that many private schools are not worth taking out big loans for…but some kids do better in small, more supportive college environments of say 5,000 or less undergrads than say ASU with 38,000, the questoin is how much are you willing to spend and borrow for that environment?
@blossom and @lookingforward So its OK to mortgage the house for Brandeis if its a good fit, but not for Hofstra? I’m not really in favor of mortgaging the house or raiding the 401K execpt under some pretty extreme circumstances. But I’m not sure why fit is important for a high stat kid but not for a lower stat student who might be able to achieve if given the right environment. Also, knocks on schools like Hofstra and Adelphi are the reason I started this thread in the first place.
I joked I’d mortgage if D1 got into H, but wasn’t serious.
You shouldn’t hock anything of family value. Don’t raid the 401k. We did take Parent Plus, but knew exactly how and when we’d pay that back. (And it is.)
I think some of us try not to name colleges that commonly get talked about on CC and may be on someone’s list, not to offend via comparisons.
But this idea a lower stats kid needs an expensive college is what leads to many issues. Why can’t some just admit they can’t afford certain indulgences? Part of blossom’s point was why do families feel, if only they send the kid to Special College, at whatever price, the kid’s life will turn around.
Dig better than that.
GJ, right now, I have no idea what your girl’s stats are, how she stands. I don’t have a sense you’re even aiming at the right tiers. Are you confident you are?
The old adage is, “You can borrow some for college, you can’t borrow for retirement.” Likewise, if something/anything interrupts a child’s college years, do you want the home to be in jeopardy?
@lookingforward This isn’t primarily about me or my daughter’s stats. At least not this particular point.
My point is that this is just as true of a higher stat kid. In fact, stats has nothing to do with it. If the family can afford a private experience that they feel will benefit their child, great. If they have to sacrifice their own futures or that of their other children, then no.
I would need a lot of persuading that a kid who showed little interest in academics in HS, coasted through the state’s mandated curriculum of math, bio, English, etc. without showing any propensity to challenge him/herself or do a deep dive, is going to magically wake up once ensconced at a pricey private college WHICH THE PARENTS CANNOT AFFORD without loans (that’s key- you have the dough- knock yourself out).
OP- you keep changing the goal posts here with your questions. I’ve said all along- it’s about the kid. You have a kid who is a striver and hard working and likes to learn- that kid can likely flourish in a crack in the sidewalk. If that’s your kid- stop worrying. You have a kid who has shown no interest in college besides going so the grandparents will stop nagging “what are you going to do with your life”- well hey, maybe that kid needs a pricey private with lots of individual attention, maybe that kid isn’t ready for college right now, maybe that kid would do fine at CUNY (neither pricey nor private).
But the knee jerk reaction that every single kid needs the bank of mom and dad to finance the 60K+ per year disneyland/college experience AND that every single kid is going to provide a great return on that investment- boy, that’s tough to reconcile with empirical reality.
I wouldn’t mortgage my house for Brandeis (and it’s a wonderful place). I didn’t mortgage my house for MIT where my kid had a fabulous experience. But if we hadn’t been able to afford it-- by 18 years worth of college savings, two incomes with no breaks for maternity leaves, the miracle of good health, etc. my kid would have gone to state flagship’s engineering school (not our own- but another state where he’d have gotten a solid education with a great financial deal) and also had a fabulous experience. He knew the drill before application time-- what we would pay for and what we wouldn’t.
You asked about ticket punching and does it pay off- well, sure. There are some fields or jobs where you need a BA. The hiring entity doesn’t care what subject it’s in, whether you wrote a senior thesis or not, whether your professor asked you to attend a conference in Geneva with her so you could present your research findings, whether you are in Phi Beta Kappa. They just want that BA on your application. Lots and lots of jobs and lots and lots of people in those jobs.
@blossom I’m not intending to change the goalposts. This is a somewhat meandering conversation and I am participating as it moves forward. Not everything I post is a request for information about my kid. In fact, I will say right now that I have gotten all I need from this thread with regards to my current college jr. as well as the kids coming up next. Many people here have been incredibly helpful.
However, if people make statements that I have questions about or with which I disagree on general principles, I will still participate.
In response to your earlier post, I feel that it misses the mark with its mention of specific schools and by implication a specific tier of schools. My point is that the calculation is the same for a high stat kid as well as a lower stat kid. There is generally no reason to mortgage the house, raid the 401k and take out debilitating loans. Whether high or low stat, people need to get over the idea that they need an expensive school. However, if the parent CAN afford it, there is just as much benefit to getting the fit right for a low stat as well as a high stat kid. In those circumstances where the kid is truly a slacker and completely uninterested in education, its probably not worth the in state or CUNY tuition either.
I will grant that there are occasionally unusual circumstances and individual situations can vary.
to @blossom 's point, I have two kids. S is a freshman in college who was a rock star in HS. Always wanted to do more, be the best he could be, help others along the way, etc. He was good enough to get accepted into several highly selective schools plus his state flagship (competitive / honors) and we agreed to let him go to the pricey private selective school because his attitude and their resources will be a great combination (yes he would do well at state U but he will have incredible opportunities where he is and we think it’s worth it). Already seeing benefits / results.
Fast forward to D. Sophomore in HS. Already telling us she’s not taking anymore foreign language, not going to pursue the calc track, etc. Not a requirement to graduate and she doesn’t want to do it…blah blah blah. To her defense, she’s a musical theater kid and doesn’t really care about anything outside the arts, attends a performing arts HS, etc. We will support her attending a top BFA program if she gets in, but outside of that we’ve already told her to forget about top academic schools or anything beyond state U if her intention is to pursue theater because there will be no additional benefit, just cost. She gets it completely. Actually told us if she doesn’t get in to a good BFA, she just wants to move to NY and audition full time (yikes). The thing is she’s very smart, just not academically motivated.
So, boost, prestige, resources, etc. really depend on the kid.
I mentioned specific schools because NY State happens to have a robust system of public universities which are often underrated and undervalued because NY also happens to have so many private colleges as well. I’m not picking on any particular college and apologies if that’s how you read my remarks- but in a state with an abundance of “might be cheaper for you” universities, the fact that people are willing to raid their retirement for a “not as good” college education is often not a well thought out plan about finding an optimal fit for their kid. But a knee jerk reaction that if it’s expensive it must be better. And to your overall question- where does the prestige boost end- if any family is looking at heavy loans when there is a less costly AND in some cases more rigorous education available- then perhaps that’s where to start.
There does seem to be the idea that private is inherently better than public, even though non-elite privates may be under financial stress and therefore unable to offer the enhancements to the student experience that wealthy elite privates may be able to offer.