<ol>
<li><p>Northwestern (love the campus, great econ department, great business/law school, nice city)</p></li>
<li><p>Wash U (the only school that I know of that lets you double major in different schools, so I could do a liberal arts major and a business major if I want to, not sure about St. Louis though…)</p></li>
<li><p>Cornell (nice campus but a bit too rural, prestige factor is a plus, I would love to take cooking classes in the hotel school)</p></li>
<li><p>Rice (don’t really want to go to Texas, sounds like a really nice friendly school but I don’t really know about that)</p></li>
<li><p>UChicago (when I visited, it just didn’t click :()</p></li>
</ol>
<p>
I’m fairly certain that Rice allows double degrees; in other words, you could double major in music and electrical engineering if you wanted, but you’d have to be insane to try such a thing.</p>
<p>“Cornell’s number including the contract colleges (please, they’re not state schools, get informed)”</p>
<p>I have been there with you before. You failed to convince me. Cornell gives tuition breaks in some of its schools to In-State students because it receives revenues from the State. They are partially state-sponsored schools, call them whatever you like; the truth is still the truth.</p>
<p>“Although Cornell attracts many students from the northeast, its name is far from regional, maybe even more-so than any of the other schools bball listed.”</p>
<p>-Based on what? Your belief and want for this to be so? </p>
<p>“Plus, how can any ivy NOT be “regional”??? Most of the very best high schools in the US are in the Northeast,” </p>
<p>-So, you agree, your last statement that Cornell is not regional is nonsense. </p>
<p>-This is both laughable and ridiculous for several reasons. First off, again, how can a school like Rice have great and academically comparable students and still be 60% Southwestern? The reason is that, despite what you are asserting, the best high school students are not only in the Northeast. Nice try though. </p>
<p>“and a huge percentage of the US population is in the Northeast - NYC, Philly, Boston, plus a bunch of other cities are all within a few hours of each other.”</p>
<p>This is ludicrous. The population of an area does not stop students from LEAVING that area to go to school. </p>
<p>What I am saying is that prestige is a more regional and subjective thing. The only true way to study what is in fact “prestigious” is to look at the elites and their behavior (both schools and students). One of the few ways to see how top students judge prestige is to see where in fact they are applying and matriculating. Looking at geographic data of schools tells us that even those schools that are usually seen as elite, have pretty large regional representations of their undergraduate students. If we are to try to define prestige in some manner, then we first have to create a system for doing so. Personally, I don’t care what a person’s uncle’s wife’s friend thinks about school X; I care about how students with comparable academic strengths operate.</p>
<p>Again, how could a schools like Rice maintain a highly competitive undergraduate population, and still be highly regional? The answer is that the drawing power or “prestige” of schools is very strong in some areas, and weaker in others. Weaker, that is, then other elite schools in said other areas.</p>
<p>“I have been there with you before. You failed to convince me.”</p>
<p>I don’t know how you failed to be convinced. The evidence is really clear. A private school getting funding from the government does not constitute a state school. I’m willing to bet you Northwestern does as well, just not in the millions and millions that Cornell does. there are a dozen more reasons why cornell is far from a state school, but i’m tired and don’t feel like typing out a bunch of stuff for you to just say “i don’t get it, i dont understand.” It’s not difficult, but you somehow make it. </p>
<p>" -Based on what? Your belief and want for this to be so?"</p>
<p>So you think Cornell is just a regional name, eh. I believe you’re wrong and I think Cornell has a name that is strong from coast to coast as well as internationally. I mean, it’s not like i’ve lived on both coasts or anything, those are just minor details. </p>
<p>I dont think Cornell is a regional school, but a large percentage of the best high schools are in the Northeast so recruitment here is of course heavy. Cornell does always pull in thousands of students from all over the US though. I’m not doing the math, but I wonder exactly how many students Cornell pulls in from the south, midwest, etc. I can’t imagine them being far from the numbers of the other schools. </p>
<p>" how can a school like Rice have great and academically comparable students and still be 60% Southwestern?"</p>
<p>Rice has like 4,000 students. Cornell has almost 4 times as many. Rice is almost a loner in the south - the only schools that are close are UT-austin, vanderbilt, emory, and WUSL. Smart students who want to stay in the south have rather limited choices. The next best thing is to go far, pay more and deal with winters. Cornell gets to deal with all 8 ivy schools plus loads of others. Just my hypothesis. </p>
<p>How can you deny population issues? Face it, most students don’t travel 35 hours by car or fly to go to school. It’s convenient having all 8 ivys on the east, especially for the huge population on the east. </p>
<p>“The reason is that, despite what you are asserting, the best high school students are not only in the Northeast”</p>
<p>There are some great high schools elsewhere, but there are loads more in the Northeast. Prove that there isn’t, then you may have a point. </p>
<p>You think the only way to judge prestige is to look at what % of students come from other states. Not going to work here, buddy. Sorry. </p>
<p>I’ll agree with you here - Northwestern and Uchicago are popular in Chicago, Rice is popular in the deep south, WashU is popular in the South as well, and Cornell is popular in NYC, Philly, Boston, and all other East Coast cities. I think Cornell is highly regarded in many more locations, but I’m going to forget about the debate for now. If I had to be “regional” thank god Cornell is Northeast.</p>
<p>Cornell or NW</p>
<p>KK, Rice has 2,800 undergraduate students, Cornell is 5 times larger. It is easy to attract 700 or 800 students each year. Cornell has to attract 3,500+ annually. </p>
<p>Answer me this, outside of Texas and NY, which school is more prestigious, Cornell or Rice? In Chicago, DC, San Francisco, LA, Paris, Berlin, London, Berlin, Tokyo etc…which is more prestigious? </p>
<p>Same goes with WUSTL. Yes, in Missouri, Wash. U. is probably more prestigious than Cornell. But how about in areas other than Missouri and NY? </p>
<p>Don’t get me wrong, Rice and WUSTL are both awesome universities, but I think it terms of overall prestige, Cornell, Chicago and NU have the edge.</p>
<p>“I’m willing to bet you Northwestern does as well, just not in the millions and millions that Cornell does. there are a dozen more reasons why cornell is far from a state school, but i’m tired and don’t feel like typing out a bunch of stuff for you to just say “i don’t get it, i dont understand.” It’s not difficult, but you somehow make it.” </p>
<p>I’m sure Northwestern does get government monies. Does it give cheaper tuition to Illinois residents as a result? No. So, Cornell gives NY residents cheaper tuition in the schools that receive state monies just to be nice? Is that what you’re saying? Never have I said the state runs the colleges, but the fact is: In-State students receive lower tuition because of state funding, plain and simple. Call them what you will “state schools” “partially state-funded” “contract”, whatever. The truth is the truth. </p>
<p>“So you think Cornell is just a regional name, eh. I believe you’re wrong and I think Cornell has a name that is strong from coast to coast as well as internationally. I mean, it’s not like i’ve lived on both coasts or anything, those are just minor details.”</p>
<p>As I have often stated, I think most schools are regional, not just Cornell. You say I’m wrong, and that is your right. You, however, do not offer any reason other than your opinion.</p>
<p>“Rice has like 4,000 students. Cornell has almost 4 times as many.”</p>
<p>-This applies to most schools, not just Rice. Rice’s size is of no consequence; this does not change the facts that it has a very academically strong undergraduate population, a population that rivals pretty much all elite schools, and one that is overwhelmingly Southern. </p>
<p>“ Rice is almost a loner in the south - the only schools that are close are UT-austin, vanderbilt, emory, and WUSL.”</p>
<p>This only leads to bolster my argument that schools have stronger regional drawing power. Again, there is nothing stopping students from LEAVING their individual regions to attend college.</p>
<p>“How can you deny population issues? Face it, most students don’t travel 35 hours by car or fly to go to school. It’s convenient having all 8 ivys on the east, especially for the huge population on the east.”</p>
<p>You seem too content with making grand claims with little or no evidence. Take the University of Chicago; 67% of the school is not from the Midwest. Thus, “most students” who attend Chicago seem to travel to get there. At Northwestern, 57% of students are not from the Midwest. Again, “most students” at Northwestern have to travel to get there. </p>
<p>“There are some great high schools elsewhere, but there are loads more in the Northeast. Prove that there isn’t, then you may have a point.”</p>
<p>I don’t have to prove your ignorance wrong; how about you first prove that the Northeast has better high schools than the rest of the country. I can’t believe you don’t see the pure absurdity of this statement.</p>
<p>“You think the only way to judge prestige is to look at what % of students come from other states. Not going to work here, buddy. Sorry.”</p>
<p>That’s not at all what I think. I do however, think it is a factor. It is a factor that displays a school’s name strength outside its individual region. Like I said, if you have another way to judge prestige, please submit it, and I would be more than willing to talk about it.</p>
<p>As it stands, my argument is that most elite American colleges have strong regional prestige. This prestige is usually strongest in its home territory, and tends to weaken the farther you get from said territory. I base this on geographic distribution data of schools’ undergraduates.</p>
<p>If you have a problem with this statement, then prove it wrong with something other than your opinions. </p>
<p>“I’ll agree with you here - Northwestern and Uchicago are popular in Chicago, Rice is popular in the deep south, WashU is popular in the South as well, and Cornell is popular in NYC, Philly, Boston, and all other East Coast cities. I think Cornell is highly regarded in many more locations, but I’m going to forget about the debate for now. If I had to be “regional” thank god Cornell is Northeast.”</p>
<p>I never said Cornell is not highly regarded in other regions, just that it is not AS highly regarded as it is in the Northeast. Again, this applies to most schools in the country. I am more than willing to talk about how you define prestige, if in fact you have some sort of numbers to back up what you are asserting. Your opinions, my friend, are just not enough.</p>
<p>“KK, Rice has 2,800 undergraduate students, Cornell is 5 times larger. It is easy to attract 700 or 800 students each year. Cornell has to attract 3,500+ annually.”</p>
<p>Again, I’m not just talking Cornell and Rice. I’m talking about most American schools. Also, It doesn’t matter how big or small a school is. This does not stop the school from admitting and matriculating students from outside its own region. Elite school X could have 100 students. If all 100 are from one area, that says something to me about its ability to draw students from other places, or its “national prestige”. </p>
<p>“Answer me this, outside of Texas and NY, which school is more prestigious, Cornell or Rice? In Chicago, DC, San Francisco, LA, Paris, Berlin, London, Berlin, Tokyo etc…which is more prestigious?”</p>
<p>I have no way to judge this. You may be ok with making baseless claims, but I am not. If I say Rice is more prestigious in those places, what will you tell me? Will you tell me it’s not? How can you prove this, without using anecdotal evidence?</p>
<p>“Same goes with WUSTL. Yes, in Missouri, Wash. U. is probably more prestigious than Cornell. But how about in areas other than Missouri and NY? </p>
<p>Don’t get me wrong, Rice and WUSTL are both awesome universities, but I think it terms of overall prestige, Cornell, Chicago and NU have the edge.”</p>
<p>Again, on what do you base these statements? Are these statements really just a reflection of what you as an individual believe? Can you offer me any evidence that this is so?</p>
<p>Basically, it breaks down like this. Those “not in the know” in, say, Virginia, have probably heard of Cornell but not of Rice. Yes, those people include potential employers - HOWEVER, these employers who don’t have significant knowledge of collegiate prestige probably don’t place a lot of emphasis on the name on your degree, anyway (<em>cough</em>mostemployers<em>cough</em>).</p>
<p>Those who care about where you went will see Cornell and Rice as equally good schools.</p>
<p>KK, you are entitled to your own opinion. The belief that Rice and WUSTL are as prestigious as Cornell or Chicago is yours cherish. I do not claim to have conducted a scientific study that unquestionably and irrevocably proves either one of our respective stands. I also genuinely respect Rice and WUSTL a great deal, so I have no desire to condict any such study. But if you ask me, given my limited exposure, typically, Cornell is more highly regarded than Rice or WUSTL.</p>
<p>^^^</p>
<p>I agree. </p>
<p>“So, Cornell gives NY residents cheaper tuition in the schools that receive state monies just to be nice? Is that what youre saying?”</p>
<p>Am I allowed to say sort of? Those whole point of reducing tuition for NY state residents is to get them to come to the school. All three schools are set up to be highly beneficial to New York’s economy. New York can’t regulate the contract colleges, but they can try to entice students into going there. New York’s state schools system is SUNY, and the only association Cornell has to this system is taking money from their budget … lately though, the governer (sp?) has been giving most of the money (I believe like $30 million in the past two weeks for some sweet research projects). </p>
<p>I was wrong on one thing though, Rice has way less undergraduates than I thought. </p>
<p>Another thing that I think of. If Uchicago gets X% from the midwest - how many students from the midwest are there? I know chicago is a big city, but outside of this, what are some other mega-cities? I can’t think of any significant ones so it only makes senese that chicago has to draw in applicants from other parts of the country. </p>
<p>I really dont think anybody could change your mind about it, but I dont think you’re quite right and I’m going to leave it at that.</p>
<p>In Korea, Cornell is the most “prestigious” of the five schools - mainly because it’s in the Ivy League. Not many people know of Rice or WUSTL. So here’s a Korean perspective…</p>
<p>I agree.</p>
<p>Of course you both agree. You both attend/attended Cornell. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>Another thing that I think of. If Uchicago gets X% from the midwest - how many students from the midwest are there? I know chicago is a big city, but outside of this, what are some other mega-cities? I can’t think of any significant ones so it only makes senese that chicago has to draw in applicants from other parts of the country.</p>
<p>Good students dont come just from areas with mega cities, or even large cities for that matter. This assertion is almost as funny as your unfounded the Northeast has better high schools claim. 
Despite a lack of other metropolises in the Midwest, high schools are still able to produce good students. The Midwest is, in fact, larger than the Northeast. Thus, the population argument you make is moot. </p>
<p>The purpose of studying the elites is that their students are pretty much interchangeable (save a few schools). So, a person who is admitted to say, Cornell, could also be admitted to Northwestern, Chicago, etc. This is a way of normalizing the data that we are studying (students).</p>
<p>Take the Universities of Pennsylvania and Chicago:</p>
<p>In recent classes, Chicago drew about 220 students from Illinois and Penn drew about 450 from Pennsylvania; 17 and 18% of the undergraduate classes respectively. </p>
<p>Chicago also drew about 40 (3.3%) students from Pennsylvania and Penn about 50 (1.9%) from Illinois. Illinois is a larger state than Pennsylvania, and yet Penn only draws 50 people or 1.9% of its undergraduates from there. </p>
<p>Chicago draws about 170 more people from Illinois than Penn each year, despite being half its size. So, again, if the geographic representation of a school is merely a reflection of population, UChicago should have many more students from Pennsylvania than it does, and Penn should have many more from Illinois than it does. </p>
<p>Im not saying that these schools are not nationally prestigious. I would only say that if a school had very small percentages of students from outside its home region. This, however, is not the case for most, if not all elite schools. What I am in fact saying is that colleges prestige levels, to me, correlate, at least in part, with the geographic distribution of their students.</p>
<p>I really dont think anybody could change your mind about it, but I dont think you’re quite right and I’m going to leave it at that.</p>
<p>This is untrue. I definitely would change my mind if I saw some sort of data or argument supporting your opinions and shooting down mine. You are correct that I wont be convinced, if the only thing people are going to do is say youre wrong and leave it at that.</p>
<ol>
<li>Northwestern</li>
<li>Rice</li>
<li>UChicago</li>
<li>WashU St. Louis</li>
<li>Cornell</li>
</ol>
<p>
</p>
<p>kk, your relentless/unbending argument style is commendable, but what I’ve noticed so far is that you are not listening other peoples arguments/opinions, but rather keep spitting out your same opinion again and again - never a good quality of a great debater.</p>
<p>Considering the fact that I live in the other part of the country, the west coast, and didn’t attend Cornell/Chicago or other three schools in question; I could offer you an objective/unbiased opinion and hope to put an end to this “going nowhere any time soon” argument.</p>
<p>Chicago/Cornell is, head and shoulder, more recognized than wustl and rice, in terms of academic recognition and prestige. Indeed, there is a regional flavor in each of the five schools, but, by and large, Chicago and Cornell’s names are much well-received than wustl and rice’s for the people in the know.</p>
<p>Btw, have you done 50 pushups this morning? :rolleyes:</p>
<p>“This assertion is almost as funny as your unfounded the Northeast has better high schools claim. Despite a lack of other metropolises in the Midwest, high schools are still able to produce good students.”</p>
<p>No doubt about that, but explain to me some of the public high schools in the northeast that routinely send dozens and dozens of students to the ivies each year. Where are schools such as Andover, Bullis, Chapin, Chesnuthill, Choate, Collegiate, Deerfield, Delbarton, Episcolplal, Ethil Walker, Gilman, Groton, Haverford, Landon, Lawrenceville, Blair, Milton, Park, Penn Charter, Peddie, Poly Prep, Shipley, St. Andrews, St. Pauls, Thacher, Thayer, and dozens of other private schools located? Guess… </p>
<p>I’m not doubting the fact that there’s some absolutely fantastic high schools in the midwest, but what I am saying is that their concentration is far from what it is in the Northeast. </p>
<p>“You are correct that I wont be convinced, if the only thing people are going to do is say youre wrong and leave it at that.”</p>
<p>Other people have quoted their experiences. We can’t have factual evidence on a topic like this, only what other people have experienced. Of course Alexandre and I went to the same school, but don’t forget he’s lived in the midwest for a dozen or so years and currently lives quite a ways outside of the USA. He’s one that can comment on Cornell’s international reputation and it’s rep. in the midwest. He did, but I guess you want pure numbers (something we can never get).</p>
<p>“how many students from the midwest are there? I know chicago is a big city, but outside of this, what are some other mega-cities? I can’t think of any significant ones so it only makes senese that chicago has to draw in applicants from other parts of the country.”</p>
<p>most of this country’s population is from rural areas</p>
<p>“Where are schools such as Andover, Bullis, Chapin, Chesnuthill, Choate, Collegiate, Deerfield, Delbarton, Episcolplal, Ethil Walker, Gilman, Groton, Haverford, Landon, Lawrenceville, Blair, Milton, Park, Penn Charter, Peddie, Poly Prep, Shipley, St. Andrews, St. Pauls, Thacher, Thayer, and dozens of other private schools located? Guess…”</p>
<p>Do you want me to name off two-dozen midwestern private schools? You are one of those new-englanders who believe that the only good schools are new-england schools and then using that common, misinformed, centric view as evidence in an argument.</p>
<p>“I’m not doubting the fact that there’s some absolutely fantastic high schools in the midwest, but what I am saying is that their concentration is far from what it is in the Northeast.”</p>
<p>You yourself provided the refutation to this argument when you said there was an extreme concentration of big cities in a small area, therefore obviously there needs to be more high schools concentrated in that area to accomodate all those students. Don’t forget the midwest is larger spatially.</p>
<p>“Of course Alexandre and I went to the same school, but don’t forget he’s lived in the midwest for a dozen or so years and currently lives quite a ways outside of the USA. He’s one that can comment on Cornell’s international reputation and it’s rep. in the midwest.”</p>
<p>dude, kk is not saying cornell doesn’t have a rep in the midwest, or even that it’s a bad one, he’s only saying, a point i believe you already conceeded when you said “I’ll agree with you here - Northwestern and Uchicago are popular in Chicago,” that institutions’ prestige varies per geographic region, and elite universities with national draws still tend to have stronger prestige within their region/local area. That is all he is saying.</p>
<p>“Do you want me to name off two-dozen midwestern private schools?”</p>
<p>Should I take the KK approach and say “yes, then cite numbers and class stats to prove they’re comprable.” Don’t bother…</p>
<p>“You are one of those new-englanders who believe that the only good schools are new-england schools and then using that common, misinformed, centric view as evidence in an argument.”</p>
<p>i’m originally from California. I though cali had some great schools, but was shocked to see the abundance of them in the northeast. </p>
<p>“You yourself provided the refutation to this argument”</p>
<p>No, I didn’t. I checked back to see if I did, but i’m not sure what you mean. </p>
<p>“he’s only saying, a point i believe you already conceeded when you said “I’ll agree with you here - Northwestern and Uchicago are popular in Chicago,” that institutions’ prestige varies per geographic region, and elite universities with national draws still tend to have stronger prestige within their region/local area. That is all he is saying.”</p>
<p>I believe that Cornell’s prestige beats that of Northwestern, Rice, and WUSL in the Northeast area and this is probably somewhat due to the notion of “prestige within a region.” I’m sure Chicago/NU have more regional prestige in the Chicago area. But, I also believe that Cornell’s prestige beats that of Northwestern, Rice, and WUSL in most other areas of the greater North American continent and well beyond. I’m not sure if Cornell’s prestige “dwindles” the further you get away from the Northeast, but even if it does I believe that this drop is nearly insignificant when compared to schools like Northwestern, Rice, WUSL. I hate saying stuff like this with the risk of sounding pretentious, but you guys (two Northwestern student - coincidence?) just didn’t seem to get what we are saying.</p>
<p>"“You yourself provided the refutation to this argument”</p>
<p>No, I didn’t. I checked back to see if I did, but i’m not sure what you mean."</p>
<p>you said:</p>
<p>“a huge percentage of the US population is in the Northeast - NYC, Philly, Boston, plus a bunch of other cities are all within a few hours of each other.”</p>
<p>“I hate saying stuff like this with the risk of sounding pretentious, but you guys (two Northwestern student - coincidence?) just didn’t seem to get what we are saying.”</p>
<p>I’m not defending northwestern so much as i’m attacking cornell.</p>