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Do you have a link to a reference about this explanation?</p>
<p>summary of my readings from various etiquette books. As an immigrant to this country I carefully read all the manners books very carefully and continue to read them.</p>
<p>Might that possibly be a rather dated book? That seems very “old school” (sorry for the pun) to me. I don’t really believe that applies in this day and age.</p>
<p>(plus, I don’t think it is accurate. You might want to read the thread in full- this issue has been discussed)</p>
<p>jym, I have read all the etiquette books, every edition of Post, Vanderbilt, Baldridge and Miss Manners/Judith Martin. Please specifically tell me where I am wrong.</p>
<p>In manners, old school is a good starting point. As they say, you must learn Bach before you learn jazz; your first teacher must be a taskmaster who teaches you the rules, then comes the teacher who supports your creative leaps. Same in this area. Know the tradition before you depart from it.</p>
<p>Let us proceed some more: socially, in a gathering, you address the MD as Doctor unless of course you are on first name basis, I am referring to one you are meeting for first time. But you don’t ask him or her about your gall bladder.
The conventions for addressing women depend on whether the woman is using a professional name, late husband’s name, former husband’s name socially for the sake of children, or maiden name, etc. It is more complicated than the posters would have you believe; it is clear some of them don’t have a clue what they are opining about. Hypenated names are treated as if they are one name only.</p>
<p>Just go out and buy Miss Manners’ Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior, it is all there. And when you go across the pond , do carry Debrett’s peerage, also a guide to Ascot, we don’t want to have you in Henley dress with the horses, do we?</p>
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<p>My mom was a clinical psychologist, so she’d fall under this category. She certainly fit in well with the medical community and was known as an expert in her field, and “real doctors” would defer to her judgment all the time. They called her Doctor.</p>
<p>When my husband finishes his PhD after seven years of post-graduate work, we’ll call him Doctor, too. His own professors use their title in social situations.</p>
<p>It’s extending a courtesy; an acknowledgement of a hard-earned, officially-recognized expertise in something. I don’t understand how withholding a courtesy can be considered the most “technically” courteous thing to do.</p>
<p>aibarr, I don’t know the origin of the convention but clinical psychologists are not properly called Dr outside of professional/academic/clinical settings. Even there, if there could be some confusion , they have name tags, John smith, MD or John smith PhD to clarify. Socially, only MDs are called Dr.</p>
<p>I hold a PhD but do not draw attention to it in any manner. My late father was an MD and when my last name was used with Dr in front I always thought it referred to my father. Medical doctors have a higher rank socially; many clinical psychologists are insecure vis a vis MDs (read the debate on prescription privileges for psychologists).</p>
<p>First you said
Now you are saying
This latter statement is closer to what is commonly done. If a patient sees their psychologist in a social situation and chooses to say hello to their doctor, they will (appropriately) use the term “Dr.”. They will not call them Mr. or Ms. simply because they are not in a clinical setting. I know some Ph.D.s whose degrees are in things like electromedical engineering. They have every right, IMO, to call themselves “Dr.” if they choose. If a person has a Ph.D in what is more traditionally an academic rather than clinical area-- say Medieval History, are you saying that if they introduce themselves to someone as Dr. that is is improper or the person should refer to them in return as Mr. or Ms? That would be discourteous, and fly in the face of the teachings of Ms. Manners and Emily Post, I would think.</p>
<p>With all due respect- I’d suggest you read the thread here in its entirety - it explains the history and appropriate usage of the term “Dr.”. And wouldn’t Ms Manners say it is rude or disrespectful to call someone “insecure” or to be condescending? I am quite familiar with the issue of prescription priviledges for Ph.Ds. The ones who are insecure (if that is an appropriate term) are the MDs, not the Ph.D.s . , but that is a discussion for another thread. As an aside, there is a difference between reading history and living in the past.</p>
<p>By the way, aibarr, you are entirely correct.</p>
<p>jym, when I wrote academic settings I also included clinical settings although I did not write it. My mistake. the point is not someone calling me “Dr”, my patients do when they see me somewhere outside of work, no, I won’t correct someone who does so, nor correct someone who calls me Mr.</p>
<p>What is to the point is that it is not mannerly for a PhD in any subject to introduce himself/herself as Dr. of course, no one will introduce himself/herself as Mr either.</p>
<p>No, sir, I am not living in the past but a study of tradition and mannerly mores is important but you are probably part of a generation born after the 60s which is sloppily dressed, sloppily spoken, sloppily mannered. Why, I have even known you to use your cell phone at the opera.!</p>
<p>The post about the clinical psychologist mother who is competent to diagnose medical conditions and who is deferred to by medical colleagues seemed very insecure to me. I work routinely with ER physicians who defer to me but I would not consider therefore I need to be addressed as Dr outside of work.</p>
<p>Outside of work, I almost never mention my academic degree or call attention to the PhD, if someone does, I quietly accept it. One has to be insecure to insist on this form of address or introduce oneself as such.</p>
<p>Yes, if I knew any of you personally, the slur insecure will be impolite but there is some leeway given to forums like this. For example, one can write a letter to the editor of the newspaper which if addressed to a particular person would be considered rude.</p>
<p>aibarr, your husband’s professors are boorish. This is not about competence in medical issues. In a social situation, your expertise in a subject is not to be mentioned at all, hence the irrelevance of the doctorate. Again, let’s resort to Miss Manners: how charming , she writes, to ask a woman who does not work outside the home about her views on the latest supreme court decision and to ask the economist his views on n art show at the Met. The point is, in polite society, your work role ought to be muffled except in the case of the clergy and the medical doctor since they were the only ones who made house calls when you are dying. Hence, they have a higher rank since they mediate the transition.</p>
<p>it is a charming, quaint view, one to which I heartily subscribe but in a society where people put their feet on the coffee table and don’t say grace before meals or send condolences by email I will come across as hopelessly old fashioned.</p>
<p>ramaswami-
Academic settings and clinical settings are not the same. I had politely asked you to clarify, or link a reference, in post #41. Your response suggested that you had read every manners book out there. OUr point is that there is a huge diffrence between what may be written in a book and what is considered common courtsey in interpersonal interaction.</p>
<p>As for some of the other comments, why is there “leeway” to make “cracks” about “insecure” Ph.Ds on a forum? If we are talking about ettiquette, we should use nettiquette too. Such comments are disrespectful, whether they are face-to-face or wid when hidden behind a computer screen. Just as you say people inappropriately use their cellphones in the opera (not me- I hate the opera), so, too it is inappropriate to make derogatory , sweeping statements. </p>
<p>No, I don’t know you IRL, and vice versa. You have insulted me personally, by insulting my profession. And, fwiw, I am not a “he”. As for whether I introduce myself as “Dr.” in public, rarely do I, but if I am at a function with many professionals, or where others have used my professional services or know me in my professional capacity and they introduce me as “Dr.” I am not going to correct them. Even if in some dusty old book it is suggested that it is appropriate, it is rude, and I would never do that.</p>
<p>Sorry ramaswami- but if your " charming, quaint" ways are to call people boorish and to continue to propose, in essence, that only MD’s are “real doctors” well, please excuse me if I don’t choose to take cotillion classes from you.</p>
<p>** boorish: implies rudeness of manner due to insensitiveness to others’ feelings and unwillingness to be agreeable .</p>
<p>So sorry if my last comment about cotillion classes was “boorish” ramaswami.</p>
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<p>You have now both called my mother insecure, and my husband’s mentors (and at this point, some of our most cherished family friends) boorish. I’d prefer not to hear any more of your opinions on courtesy.</p>
<p>I would be turned off by someone introducing themselves in a non-academic setting as “Dr.” due to their PhD (I think that many of my peers would be, too. I don’t know how much of a generational thing it is, but it would come off as pompous to me). However, I would make a note of their preference and use the title when addressing them. .</p>
<p>unregistered, well said. I too would always honor the preference but would make note of it and if the person behaved thus in other matters it would be a cold day in hell before I befriended such a boor.</p>
<p>Rama,
I cannot recall when I last glanced through an Emily Post book. Fortunately, her book Etiquette is now posted online. Search as I could, I could find no reference for how one introduces a Ph.D. The following, from Chapter V, is the closest I came to how Ms. Post handles titles:</p>
<p>Very few people in polite society are introduced by their formal titles. A hostess says, Mrs. Jones, may I present the Duke of Overthere? or Lord Blank?; never his Grace or his Lordship. The Honorable is merely Mr. Lordson, or Mr. Holdoffice. A doctor, a judge, a bishop, are addressed and introduced by their titles. The clergy are usually Mister unless they formally hold the title of Doctor, or Dean, or Canon. A Catholic priest is Father Kelly. A senator is always introduced as Senator, whether he is still in office or not. But the President of the United States, once he is out of office, is merely Mr. and not Ex-president.</p>
<p>It was fun to read about handling one’s umbrella and silk hat at an opera, if orange blossoms can be used at a second marriage, how one introduces an unmarried daughter vs. a married one, how women should always be courteous with their maids, butlers, and salespeople, and how men should always be an escort to women, holding their arm, packages, and paying for their purchases.</p>
<p>I agree, unregistered- in some situations using ones “Dr.” title (if, for purposes of yet a different example, their doctorate is in, say, English Literature) seems stuffy or pompous. But,if they wanted to use their title, my feeling is (which differs from the official Ms Manners position) is-- far be it from me to say they can’t use their earned title. </p>
<p>And aibarr–
Well said. And with such poise and grace :)</p>
<p>LOL bookworm!! Care to join me for a spot of tea? What is the proper teaservice for this hour of the evening? Anyone have a sign that reads “rude, crude and socially unacceptable behavior not allowed” they can hang on the door? And so sorry, I gave my handmaiden and butler the night off tonight. Silly me.</p>
<p>Jym, </p>
<p>If you happen to be in Boston August 16, we shall certainly have tea at the Ritz. </p>
<p>For the record, in social situations none of my friends (including an M.D., podiatrist, D.O.) introduce themselves as “Doctor”.</p>
<p>I’ll put it on my calendar, bookworm. And as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts (which apparently some are not reading) I commented that when people ask me if I use my Dr title, I respond “only when I want good dinner reservations”. That said, shall I make the reservations?</p>
<p>Oh, and as an aside, most of my female PhD friends dont use their Dr title in social sitruations except for one-- she always does, and the rest of us just smile. It may be a gender thing, but the male friends tend to use the Dr title more often, and the MDs, DOs and even the chiropractors (male and female) do tend to use their title in social situations. Maybe its a regional thing. Dunno. Heavens, what would Ms Manners say?</p>