<p>When I was in high school, only one teacher had a Ph.D. She insisted on being referred to as “Doctor.”</p>
<p>When I was in college, the entire faculty had Ph.D’s. Not one of them referred to themselves, or expected to be referred to, as “Doctor.” Instead, it was Professor, Mr., Mrs., etc. I think that’s true of most places where everyone teaching has a Ph.D. As someone pointed out above, it really is a form of snobbery – we all know we have doctorates, so there’s no need to call attention to it.</p>
<p>When my parents graduated from law school, they received LL.B.'s. By the time I graduated from law school, the degree’s name had been changed to J.D. The requirements, though, are the same. In 29 years of practice, I have never, ever heard of a lawyer – unless they actually do have a doctorate in law, in which case they’re an LL.D. – referring to him or herself as “Doctor.” It would be absurd.</p>
<p>By the way, I know that “Esq.,” used technically, properly refers only to a man, but the standard way of writing to a female lawyer is also to address her as “Jane Doe, Esq.” I always use that form of address, and it is always used on letters I receive from other lawyers. It’s considered somewhat insulting not to use it – as if you’re implying that the person you’re writing to isn’t actually an attorney.</p>
<p>bookworm, Judith Martin, Miss Manners, writes of PhDs.</p>
<p>jym, both academic and clinical settings are work settings, not social settings, that is the larger point. So, I insult you if I insult your profession. Strange logic. But I did not insult any profession, did I? I did imply some PhDs who judge themselves based on what MDs think of them as insecure. I see a lot of such PhDs at work and it is a general comment. Americans are incapable of a dialogue, everything is seen thru the prism of race, gender, insult, political correctness. Nowhere did I mention that one should correct someone who addresses you as Dr. Nowhere did I say that MDs are the real doctors.</p>
<p>Let me clarify: I would not introduce myself as Dr in a social setting. If someone calls me such, I would not correct unless the caller believes he is talking to a medical doctor. I do think it is important to study traditional manners and adapt and tastefully use them as appropriate. That is not living in the past. If we should all claim to be insulted, did I claim to be insulted when you said I was living in the past.</p>
<p>for heaven’s sake, have a vigorous argument , don’t hide behind, “you insulted my mother”. offer a rebuttal to state why your mother is not insecure or ponder what I wrote and admit she is.</p>
<p>aibarr-
What happened to your last post? I thought we could all give ourselves the acronym “OEO” for short (sounds like the chant of the guards at the castle of the wicked witch of the west. “Oeeo, Eoooo, oh”). </p>
<p>Bookworm-
Actually, I won’t be making it to the Annual conference this year. Might we reschedule that cup of tea for another time?</p>
<p>Ramaswami-
Now you are telling people, especially aibarr, how to converse and what to say? Puleese. And if you cant see that your posts are insulting, then I might kindly suggest you take a little refresher course in your etiquette reading. Sheesh.</p>
<p>After reading the whole thread, she might just say that we should all call each other “O Exalted One” and be done with it…</p>
<p>For the record, I’ve never actually heard anyone demand that they be called “Doctor,” but I would feel tremendously awkward calling the professors and Ph.D.'d high school teachers that I so respected and admired anything aside from their well-deserved doctoral titles. It must be a recent development, to call them all “Doctor,” but it’s how it’s done in academia today. Doctor or Professor. One or the other. I would never think to call them anything else, even if it used to be considered a form of snobbery… Today it’s the academic norm. I don’t know why it changed, but to try to be the only one resisting the change in trend strikes me as very rude indeed.</p>
<p>I know a lawyer who demands to not be referred to as “Esquire,” incidentally. He says that he doesn’t even own a can of armor polish…</p>
<p>I suppose we engineers are the most polite of all. Even as licensed professionals, I’ve never seen one of my colleagues put the “P.E.” designation after their name in a social setting. I suppose that’s why some of us are called civil engineers…</p>
<p>jym, I find most Americans thin-skinned, unable or unwilling to debate, claim to be insulted at the drop of a hat. This is one anti-intellectual country. I have lived on 3 continents and have never known a more insular nation.</p>
<p>I do believe the comment about doctors deferring to someone’s mother’s expertise and hence her “right” to use the Dr title very insecure. it is not meant as an insult, an observation.</p>
<p>Only in america will people quickly bring on the rights issue. This is not about rights. No one will sue you if you call yourself Dr or if you don’t. This is an insecurity or snobbery issue. That’s all.</p>
<p>Aha! There’s your post about “Oh Exalted One”. How odd that it just posted. </p>
<p>Much of whe awe are discussing is COMMON COURTESY which differs form what is written in some manners book.</p>
<p>And to <em>attempt</em> to clarify for ONE LAST time: </p>
<p>
Academia is NOT the same as a clinical (hospital, clinic, private office) setting, so to try to backpedal and say “oh the term academia encompasses all those settings” is ridiculous. If you go back and read, I jsut asked for a link to explain that statement. Instead you put your boxing gloves on, ramaswamui. They must look lovely with your spats and your cufflinks. Good grief.</p>
<p>aibarr, I know you don’t want to hear from you but forgive the intrusion. You certainly can call your Phd’d teachers Dr. I would too. The point was their describing themselves as such. That would be boorish. Not our calling them.</p>
<p>Just as no clinical psychologist would write after his name, Licensed psychologist (except in a billing statement) professional engineers don’t use PE socially, they may most certainly use it on professional stationery, I know several who do.</p>
<p>The proper address of an attorney is Esquire.</p>
<p>no ramaswami- this was a thread about courtsey. Obviously that has, and will continue to elude you. No one was looking for a fight, a debate or what have you. Since you claim to have read every manners book on the planet. its a shame that it didnt sink in. Enough already. Stop.</p>
<p>Ramaswami, if you’ll go back and read my earlier post, I never said that my mother insisted upon being called doctor in social settings. In fact, she used “Dr. (Maiden name)” as her professional name, but in a medical setting, was called doctor. That was my point. In social settings, she used “Mrs. (Married name).”</p>
<p>I may be online, but I am a human being, behind this internet persona. Your insults against my mother hurt just as much. I find it ironic that you’re continuing to insult my mom in the name of defending courtesy. My mother taught me courtesy, and thanks to her, I know rudeness when I see it. I’m going to ask you to please grant people online the same courtesy that you grant people in real life. The gauche may disregard manners online, but polite people continue to hold conversations online with respect for all.</p>
<p>jym, sorry about the academia error on my part. I meant the settings in which clinical psychologists usually practice: academia, schools, clinics, perhaps govt too. I used the wrong word, academia, to include these settings, I should have used professional settings.</p>
<p>yes, it is a courtesy, and I would address anyone, incl a history prof as doctor in every setting / The whole debate is about the hist prof describing himself as Dr in social setting. That would be unmannerly. That’s all I am trying to say.</p>
<p>When you mock me, I don’t feel insulted. It is peculiarly American to whine because Americans do not debate issues.</p>
<p>jym, words like "continue to elude you’ etc would be deemed insulting if I used it with you. Just because I am willing for a free for all debate does not mean your expressions are innocent. OK I will stop. goodbye to all of you.</p>
It is technically incorrect for anyone (regardless of degree) to introduce themselves as ‘Dr.’. It sounds quite silly if someone says “hello I’m Mr. John Doe” and so it’s equally silly if someone says “hello I’m Dr. John Doe.” You should never use an honorific to refer to yourself otherwise you’ll sound a bit silly. Your own name is always Firstname Lastname, Title (although you’d generally only use the title bit in print form). </p>
<p>As for this nonsense that somehow there are situations where an MD should be addressed formally as Dr. but a PhD as Mr/Ms… that’s just silly. There is no such situation. If there is a style guide out there that says this then I suggest the author reads a history book (see earlier posts regarding the medical profession and hijacking of the honorific). </p>
<p>A basic principle of etiquette is that you should always show respect for and act humble towards your guest, person you are talking to, addressing, etc… Stripping someone of their title and then suggesting that’s proper etiquette is in and of itself a breach of etiquette. When in doubt, always use someone’s title if they have one… that way you’ll never be wrong and won’t offend anyone. </p>
<p>As I mentioned previously, I’m quite laid back about the whole thing but if I knew that someone was intentionally calling me Mr. and not Dr. in a formal situation then yes I’d be quite offended.</p>
<p>Ramaswami appears to be a ludicrously pompous individual, who takes pleasure in making silly generalized insults about “most Americans,” and the '60’s generation, yada yada yada, and how anyone who disagrees with him is a pusillanimous whiner incapable of debate, and he must be right because his books say that’s how it oughta be! </p>
<p>Obviously, Ramaswami, you haven’t read any of those books very carefully. Because I’m sure they would all tell you that condescension, generalization, boasting of one’s alleged learnedness, and pomposity are hardly considered virtues in the field of etiquette!</p>
<p>Very interesting and informative discussion. Regarding my original post, I’ve learned my lesson and will certainly use Dr. for PhDs in the future. </p>
<p>Over the last day I’ve spent some time browsing various etiquette books and websites about this issue of titles and the consensus does seem to be that a PhD is certainly a Dr and should be addressed as such unless the person in question says otherwise. I did find one site that made this suggestion that only MDs should be styled as Dr, however that was in direct contradiction of advice offered by other etiquette sites.</p>
<p>
That seems like the best advice and what I’ll keep in mind in the future. After researching this etiquette stuff a bit I’ve seen that on a variety of issues there is often differing, or even contradicting, advice given by both hard copy books and the etiquette write-in columns. Obviously they can’t all be correct. Thus it would seem in such cases that etiquette itself would probably say to do the thing that is the least likely to cause offense to the parties involved, which in this cases is to always use the proper title if someone has one.</p>
<p>Well said, DonnaL.
Additionally, to clarify one thing–I know of few, if <em>any</em> people who refer to THEMSELVES by their title (except my one friend, LOL). What was being referred to here, I believe, was when people are being introduced by others in a social situation, their professional (dr) title is often used by others when introducing them. So, If I am introducing a colleague to another person, I might introduce them as “Dr XXXX” It really depends on the situation. Usually I jsut use firstname, Lastname (ie this is Jane Doe). At any rate, whether its “by the book” or not, I’d rather err onthe side of being a tad too formal than running the risk of accidentally offending the person.</p>
<p>I think for this or any other issue when in doubt always err on the side of being more, not less, formal. </p>
<p>
That’s by the book. It’s fine to introduce someone else to another individual using an honorific, just not yourself (e.g. “Nice to meet you Dr. Jones, please allow me to introduce you to my colleague Dr. Smith”… but it sounds a bit silly to say “Nice to meet you, my name is Dr. Bob Jones”).</p>