<p>^^jym626, I’d always thought that “Mr. Wizard” was actually “Dr. Wizard,” and just wasn’t using his title in a social situation 
--but not so.</p>
<p>For anyone who doesn’t know the details on Mr. Wizard’s career, Wikipedia gives a quick run-down. He was really quite distinguished. My spouse and I are among the scientists-of-our-age who watched his original show as children.</p>
<p>I fully agree Op had good intentions and was trying to do the right thing. I feel however that since both the individuals being named on the envelope had earned a doctorate, that both should have been addressed as dr.
Dr Karl Smith
Dr. Melissa Smith
123 Main St.
for example.</p>
<p>Op’s intent was never in question. Op’s question was (in my words) “did I address this properly?”</p>
<p>Yes, definitely no slight intended towards Yuiop. (Love your screenname, by the way. Is your first name perhaps Qwert? 
) Obviously, this is an issue fraught with confusion and changing trends, and I’ll keep the confusion in mind in the future.</p>
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Actually, it’s only in America that this is an issue at all. It comes from being a relatively young, at least formally class-less society, in which “titles” and honorifics are not handed down from generation to generation, but are earned. These earned titles deserve respect.</p>
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<p>As opposed to this character from Austin Powers:</p>
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<p>Wow. I can’t believe it’s been a year since we started the thread about Don Herbert, the acclaimed Mr. Wizard, when he passed away <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/356794-mr-wizard-don-herbert-dies-89-a.html?[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/356794-mr-wizard-don-herbert-dies-89-a.html?</a> Until I read his bio Quantmech, I too thought he was a scientist, but discovered that he was an actor. My s packed up my 1957 edition of Mr. Wizard’s experiments and took it with him when he moved last week. It is a classic. </p>
<p>Uh oh… does this mean Captain Kangaroo really isn’t a captain? What would be the correct salutation? (I think it’s a moot point, as I think, sadly, he’s no longer with us)</p>
<p>Here’s Mr. Wizard’s “timeline”, should anyone care. He was a guide at Rockefeller Center. How cool is that?? [Mr</a>. Wizard’s Biographical Timeline](<a href=“http://www.mrwizardstudios.com/bioandtimeline.htm]Mr”>Mr. Wizard Studios - Home of Watch Mr. Wizard, Mr. Wizard's World and the late, great Don Herbert)</p>
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<p>I think this is the general reason why so much confusion often occurs over such situations. In the US we don’t have as much history in terms of titles and the etiquette associated with formally addressing individuals (or a lot of etiquette in general). It’s not snobbery at all, and there are times when it’s quite important to get these things correct.</p>
<p>Jym, Well, the reason I linked that website was for its hybrid explanation more than anything else - it combined references to both traditional etiquette as well as to acceptable practice. Depending on whom you ask either Mr., Mrs., OR Dr. can be acceptable. Traditional etiquette to this day seems to state otherwise a la Judith Martin and the ever proper Crane’s: </p>
<p><a href=“Crane Stationery”>Crane Stationery, </p>
<p>though I wouldn’t be surprised to see a change even in those kind of sources over time. </p>
<p>That said, in the OP the woman who complained about being demoted was really the one not exhibiting appropriate manners. Even if the OP had breached a rule of etiquette, it would never be polite to tell her - the only purpose of which was to either correct the OP or make her feel badly. </p>
<p>Anyway, this kind of thing is really the antithesis of what the whole etiquette thing is supposed to be about. The whole point of having common standards to begin with is that it makes it possible to avoid just these kind of misunderstandings with one another in the first place. Having multiple rules from multiple sources as common practice gradually changes confuses people. But in my mind, it’s simple. If there IS, in fact, a traditional form that is still in current use, then no one should feel personally insulted if someone follows it. Although I’ve seen sources that say the Dr. is acceptable for a PhD, I have never, however, seen a single source that suggests the opposite, ie that using traditional form is wrong (there is a logic problem in there somewhere). I <em>have</em> seen suggestions that one might choose to use Dr. when in doubt of someone’s preference and I’ve seen lists that show how to address an invitation to a PhD using the Dr. but nothing that states that the use of the traditional form is a breach of etiquette in and of itself.</p>
<p>I love Cranes stationery, Roshke. I didnt realize they had an etiquette line, but it makes perfect sense. Your mentioning Cranes makes me think back to seeing my mom’s box of stationery with the copper engraving plate in there. Such fond memories…</p>
<p>I fully agree with your post-- the bottom line is that the OP didn’t intentionally hurt the female Ph.D.s feelings by not using her title, but in turn she did seem, even if perhaps in jest, to hurt the OPs feelings by making the passing comment about beig demoted. While her sensitivity is understandible, the comment probably wasn’t necessary.</p>
<p>BTW, I cant get the Cranes link to work, Roshke. Can you repost it?</p>
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There’s nothing to read into there… It’s logically assumed in any text that if you’re telling someone what to do then it’s incorrect to do something other than what’s written. You wouldn’t write a set of instructions saying “Insert the red plug into the blue hole” and then make the next sentence “If you inserted the red plug into the green hole then that is incorrect.” That’s obvious… if you do something other than what the instruction tells you to do, then it’s incorrect.</p>
<p>And in this case because different self-declared etiquette “experts” insist that one way or the other is correct, then the correct thing to do is whatever shows the most respect and humility towards the subject in question. </p>
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If someone addresses you incorrectly then there’s nothing wrong with politely correcting them. Although we weren’t there, that’s how I understood things transcended in the incident in question which took place in a private low-key conversation. For one, if such a correction is not made the original person who made the mistake might continue repeating the error in a context which it would cause themselves further embarrassment. </p>
<p>It’s sort of like giving someone the wink that their fly is open… there’s no need to make a big deal out of it but it’s ultimately in the person’s best interest to have the little boo-boo pointed out right away in a low-key manner before more people notice.</p>
<p>^^^ If I were to wink at my H when his fly was open… uh… never mind ;)</p>
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<p>Until Miss Manners says otherwise, I’m going with the Dr. being used socially only for medical doctors. </p>
<p>Among the gajillions of PhD’s among my friends and acquaintances, I know of exactly one who uses “Dr.” socially. Everyone else uses Mr./Ms./Mrs. Except, as per the cartoon mentioned upthread, when making a dinner reservation. Or when calling their school board representative </p>
<p>Whatever happened to Ian Scholls and Ask Dr. Science?</p>
<p>JYM- made me laugh- good point.
oh, I probably shouldn’t have used that phrase.</p>
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…as a bunch of 18th century graduates from the Endinburgh medical school quietly snicker in their graves saying “our plan to make ourselves look important has succeeded.”</p>
<p>LOL Karen colleges!</p>
<p>I was thinking about my one friend who introduces herself as Dr., and has on her cellphone voicemail, “this is Dr.XXXXXXX”. Well, her cellphone is used for patient emergency calls as well as for personal calls so that makes sense, and professionally she uses her maiden name, so is known as Dr.Maidenname as opposed to Ms.Marriedname. In truth, her maidenname is easier to pronounce than her married name, but I don’t think that’s the issue. I suspect many refer to them socially as Mr and Mrs Marriedname, but since she goes by her maiden name (I dont think I’ve ever referred to her by her married name and shes been married for about 20 yrs), she uses her Dr title with her last name. Does that make sense?</p>
<p>As for official protocol vs common courtesy, I’d vote for common courtesy if one had to choose. frankly, it never occurred to me to check the ettiquette books when sending out formal invitations or holiday cards. I usually avoid the issue on holiday cards by addressing them as: “The Familyname(s)”.</p>
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<p>It’s what my (insecure) mother does.</p>
<p>rocketman, That’s a good point. I know I have come across sites where they give both the list and a “when in doubt” type of guideline, but you are right that if all I saw was a list on a single website and looked no further, that’s exactly what I’d think, too. But never mind all that - you guys are not going to believe this. Look at the third resolution: </p>
<p>[AMA</a> (2008 Annual Meeting) Reference Committee C (Medical Education)](<a href=“http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/18588.html]AMA”>http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/18588.html)</p>
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<p>Here are those Crane’s links:</p>
<p>[Crane’s</a> - Etiquette](<a href=“Crane Stationery”>Crane Stationery)</p>
<p>[Crane’s</a> - Etiquette](<a href=“Crane Stationery”>Crane Stationery)</p>
<p>HOWEVER</p>
<p>[Crane’s</a> - Etiquette](<a href=“Crane Stationery”>Crane Stationery)</p>
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<p>But personally, I <em>would</em> use Dr. (some sources now make the distinction between Doctor for a medical doctor and Dr. for a PhD) if I had any doubt, or find out the person’s preference, first.</p>
<p>Another way to see it is that if I call someone by the title they earned, it is extremely unlikely they will be offended by that. If they desired that salutation, then fine. If they desire a less formal salutation they will tell me, but they’re not likely to be offended. (paragraph 1, post 98).
On the other side, if I call them by the less formal salutation without their permission, then I do risk offending them if they prefer using their title, as the OP found. One rarely risks offending by choosing the more formal route rather than the more casual route.</p>
<p>Similarly, when I speak about my attorney he is always “Mr. Steven ZZZZZZZZ”. But when I speak to my attorney, a 15 yr business relationship, I call him Steve, and he calls me Mr. XXXXX. He and I are both comfortable with the point of view that he works for me- not the other way around. And actually that was his idea. That example may or may not be right for all, or in all situations, but that one works for the two of us.</p>
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I think that’s the route to follow in any situation whether that be dress codes, addressing letters, or whatever… coming across as a bit too formal is always better than coming across as a bit too informal. </p>
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<p>Answering the phone as “this is Dr. X” is still incorrect and silly (again, since one wouldn’t answer the phone saying “this is Mr. X” (well one might, but they’d sound silly), but I do know a lot of MDs do it in a professional setting. </p>
<p>As for the whole Married/Maiden name thing, that sounds correct as it’s quite common for people to attach whatever name they had at the time to their degree (so if they graduated before marriage then it would be their maiden name) for a variety of reasons, including allowing their reputation and publications to be attached to a single name. They could still use the Dr. title with their married name socially if they wished (their degree achievements don’t change), but that is of course up to them. </p>
<p>As for the AMAs ‘resolution’ it seems they’re trying to restrict the use of the job title and not so much the honorific. In other words they seem to be trying to make the term “physician” synonymous with “doctor”… this is of course incorrect both grammatically and historically, but they don’t seem to care. Although the way they have it worded it wouldn’t restrict someone with a PhD (e.g. a researcher) from being addressed as Dr. X. </p>
<p>If the AMA is so concerned about such appearances then they should follow the route of the real estate profession and invent a term to describe themselves, trademark it, and then issue their members a license to use it (e.g. Realtor TM).</p>