<p>Well, unfortunately in our economy agriculture is now agribusiness and Monsanto is making significant inroads into other parts of the world.</p>
<p>Hm…cornfield dates? Sounds better than I meant it to!</p>
<p>As the mother of a teenaged son andclose witha a few of my kids’ friends, I agree with cheers that there are many boys out there who want to be in love and who will cherish a girl. I think boys can be pressured to be macho sex machines by the same machine that pressures girls to be vixens. I think it can leave both parties bruised.</p>
<p>MM, odd bit of near-synchronicity: my D had the head/neck/arms for solo Spanish but couldn’t quite pull the turns to the director’s comfort for our choreography. About the only thing in my balletparent capacity that I’m still a little grumped about. But she had a great ride (was a Clara), enjoys ballet to this day, and a lot of what she learned in ballet about focus & discipline & doing the easy stuff before you get to do the hard stuff transferred to academics just fine. And, frankly, she’s much better cast as a student who dances than a dancer who’s also a student.</p>
<p>I went on 49 blind dates before I was introduced to my husband (50 was the lucky charm, i guess) and I’ll stand by my gatekeeper theory, agronomy or not. ha!</p>
<p>Yeah, TheDad, they’re twins!</p>
<p>dke: Well, worked for you. Congrats. Lots of nice friends, 49 blind dates! Wow! But would you feel comfortable mandating for your child?</p>
<p>I think a lot of us had personal strategies that worked for us. Thank goodness this is not a board for those whose strategies didn’t.</p>
<p>Mentioned this thread to D and her comment was: Yeah, and those “perfect” guys you wait for can cheat on you, be a closet gay, be out of work for five years, get hooked on cocaine, turn out to be jealous, controlling, and/or abusive or just be a beast to live with. </p>
<p>To do her justice, I must say that she is a conservative (in her behavior, not politically) young lady who would certainly meet the criteria for responsible behavior of most of the parents on the thread. However, she did make it clear that she would take a very dim view of any parent queeries or interferences on this issue. Good thing was behavior has been exemplary in this department. (See smilely face here.)</p>
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Well, hmm. Where is the board for those whose strategies didn’t? But there may be some people on cc ‘whose strategies didn’t’ and hey, they are working hard to be good parents anyway.</p>
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Outta the mouths of babes.</p>
<p>And guess what, you still can have children with any of the ‘guys’ D mentioned, and you still want to be a good parent. And you might even want to look at cc sometimes, despite getting that ‘poor kid outside the candy store’ feeling regarding the quality of some folks’s marriages.</p>
<p>So for anyone feeling smug about your ‘strategy’ for snagging a spouse, the truth is, you just don’t really know what lies in the heart of anyone else, even if you marry in all good faith.</p>
<p>Our kids will ulitmately listen to their own hearts. Many have said and I agree that we have no CONTROL over what they do at college. At that point, if we have not instilled in them some core values and what it means to have a healthy relationship then we may have missed the boat.
Anyone can teach the average kid to read, write, and solve math/sciece problems, but in my opinion the first and most important lessons are not learned at school. They come from home.<br>
I’ve taught my kids to value love, family, honestly, courage, peaceability, self-reliance, self discipline, loyalty, dependability, respect, unselfishness, sensitivity & kindness, fidelity and chastity. And that without these, you can not have a healthy relationship. I’ve taught them that love is a decision and that relationships are full of good and difficult times.
My parents were my Northstar and always have been. They were married for 65 years, through thick and thin. Although my mom died last February I still feel her with me, guiding me with the gentle lessons she taught. She and my Dad were virgins when they married but never really jammed that down our throats. I did not have that as a goal, but I was pretty close and so was my husband. We both valued the things listed above and that could be part of the reason that we’ve been together almost 21 years. I can only hope that my D’s will be so lucky as to find someone with the beliefs, values and morals that they have committed their lives to.</p>
<p>I certainly don’t feel smug about anything. The issue for me here has to do with answering the OP’s question as to why [some] parents are conservative when it comes to sex. Others have given views extolling the virtues of being less conservative about it, and so I thought it appropriate to show the OP that an alternative view exists that is as valid and that may help explain why parents holding it might wish to teach it to their children. We are having a conversation here after all, and that means when we share our views we ought to be willing to hear views that differ from our own. It seems some of us are convinced it is a forgone conclusion that a deliberate attitude toward sex is unrealistic, a demand for unreachable perfection. Others seem to think such attitudes are repressive or possibly warped in some other way. I want to help the OP consider something else-- that a “conservative” view of sex does not have to lead to any of these things, but that it can support a deep, meaningful and satisfying sexual life so free of insecurity parents might wish to encourage it to their children.</p>
<p>I think alternatives are good and warranted here. I have read of women even here on this thread who are so skeptical of guys that they will not even allow guys to buy them dinner or drive them to a play. Others think it is impossible for a guy to date a girl without having sordid designs upon her. Now what in the world is that? Admittedly, guys can often be atrocious in this area, but is these women’s faith in the men they date so low that they need to be this guarded against them? And how is it that guys like my sons are to view such women? The idea that a girl would suspect my dear boy of paying for a date while harboring an expectation that she should in response shell out sex is revolting. In fact it would be an insult to my boy and to the father who raised him. When women are this guarded against men generally, it seems to me appropriate to consider advancing some alternative view that may improve our situation – at least for my own family. My experience tells me I may have something of an answer – maybe not THE answer, but possibly something useful.</p>
<p>I’m sitting here remembering my first date with my wife. She was this sparkling angel that in all sincerity I thought was too good for me. So when I took a deep breath and advanced toward her I was rattled indeed when she accepted. I paid for everything. I opened doors (still do), moved chairs (still do), and was so very glad to do it. I wanted to show affection and honor toward her. I did this for ages. Why do you suppose in all that time it never even crossed my mind to think she would owe me sex as a result of my generosity? I think it was for a few reasons. 1. because of my beliefs on the issue, developed long before I met her, 2. because I was not so jaded by sexual experience that I knew enough to push aside things like friendship and esteem to first and foremost go for the orgasm, and importantly, 3. I knew very well that the woman before me was not the sort to even think of selling her body to me to pay for a date. The notion that she could be looked upon in this way was completely incongruent with the character she projected everywhere. Now, I was not so noble that sex never occurred to me. In fact I am a ravenous wolf in this area, erm… haha… <em>ahem</em>. But because of the things I’ve mentioned above, acting on my desire was the last thing I even wanted. It was unimportant at the time because I so much enjoyed all the other things, and I still do.</p>
<p>I think my wife’s careful observation of me over time, in a variety of contexts, and under a variety of pressures, gave her confidence that in marriage, I would continue to be as I always was. There were no guarantees, of course, but c’mon. It is a rare guy indeed who would go through so much misrepresentation of himself, for so long, just to get from one woman what he could get by “dating” a thousand women who shortchange themselves everyday.</p>
<p>So rather than tell my girls to pay their way on a date, I raised them to expect the guy will pay everything and be happy to do it. The guys pay, they drive, they open the doors, move the chairs, they defend and respect, and they, all of them, deal with me if they wish to see my girls. They do all of this and understand they will get absolutely nothing in return save for friendship, the quality of which depends upon what they make of it. I know this is all old-fashioned, but that is just the way it is here. If guys are unwilling to enjoy these things for their inherent benefits, they simply prove themselves unfit as suitors. That is how my oldest girls see it. My oldest boy thinks likewise.</p>
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<p>I get that, but I also find it weird that in parent-child relationships where we communicate about so much else, it’s somehow off-limits to discuss sexuality once you sign the first college payment bill. It’s just a strange silence to me, which I observe since the common wisdom is “don’t go there, their decisions are theirs.” </p>
<p>And yet I remember being totally lost and lonely during college because I could not talk to my folks about sex, even though we could talk about everything else. Sexuality is an evolving story as a young adult. I would have appreciated having their help with it, but also never thought they’d accept my questions since they were fixated on virginity as it had worked for them. </p>
<p>With my parents, there were two big “conversations” (about periods and intercourse) and never again another word. By contrast, with our kids, we began an ongoing dialogue around age 2 (advised by Planned Parenthood…give them names for body parts and don’t stop arbitrarily below the belly-button). Every so often, there’d be a question or conversation, throughout the years they were home. Then to college, and silence. </p>
<p>I just don’t get the silence. Has anyone found a way to gently invite conversation without mandating it or prying? I don’t believe my job is “done” because I assume they, like me, continue to discover and encounter new questions in their late teens and early 20’s. Not about mechanics, obviously, but more nuanced stuff about values and relationships, and how it all fits together.</p>
<p>paying3: I think that general conversations are fine, but specifics bring up details that may be uncomfortable in a parent-child relationship. I never discussed my intimate with anyone but my partner, but if I needed to, my mother would be the last person I would want to talk to. I understand if D feels this way. One of my friends, who is a bit nutty, suggested we shadow her and her then boyfriend on their date. Of course, we didn’t.</p>
<p>Drosselmeier: I think your expression of your views appropriate and touching. Your love for your wife and desire to see your daughters happy is very appealing. </p>
<p>I don’t want to live in that closed world because I am way too adventurous, as I suspect D is. However, I don’t find you warped or anything but happy and sincere.</p>
<p>However, I think you misunderstood some of my posts. I paid for myself, drove myself, etc. because of my political values and desire for independence. I don’t distrust men; far from it. And I don’t feel like men are predators and I’m prey. (Or didn’t twenty + years ago before I was married.) I enjoyed meeting as equals with a mutual interest in emotional (and yes, at times, physical) intimacy. I would not feel comfortable with someone opening the door for me or pulling out my chair because I feel perfectly capable of doing this myself. (I understand that your feeling of respect has nothing to do with this; I am just explaining my feelings.) However, if a man did these things for me, I would say thank you and not be rude or subject him to a feminist tirade. It feels like the social worlds we inhabit are miles and years away from each other. But I don’t condescend to or patronize you. Your approach obviously works for all concerned.</p>
<p>Paying 3, I just ask! You’d be surprised how much they DO want to talk about it!</p>
<p>Drosselmeier: I find your approach inspiring and very much appreciate your sharing it. My husband treated me with the utmost respect and I felt honored to have him open my doors, move my chair, walk me to the door etc. I actually called my sister after our first date and said "I think that I went on a date this evening with the man I am going to marry and I did. We did not wait until marriage, but we were engaged. It is really sad when I think of the meaningless hollow kind of sexual experiences that some young people have today. They have no idea what they are missing and may never understand. It is only within this kind of relationship that a truly elevating, almost spiritual, passionate bond can be experienced.</p>
<p>PS, There is nothing “closed” about the kind of relationship that Drosselmeier discribes. The true adventure only begins in the context of true love, honor and
trust.</p>
<p>Paying 3, I definately don’t think a parents job is finished when they leave for college. The communication just takes a little more effort for us.</p>
<p>I can definitely see the importance of keeping the conversation going as kids go off to college. That first semester is a time of sorting out “Who am I now?” “What are my values when Mom and Dad aren’t around?” “And what on earth has happened to the friends I thought shared my values? They’re out drinking, partying, and experimenting with all sorts of new stuff. Do I risk losing their friendship? Do I join in? How do I find people like me?”</p>
<p>I saw this when I was an RA in college, and I am hearing about it as my son’s friends head off to college. It’s a BIG transition, and it’s not just about sex. It’s about all the other choices young adults must face.</p>
<p>I sent a letter home asking my dad about this stuff halfway through my freshman year. I guess I was too subtle, because he either didn’t get it or was too mortified to talk.</p>
<p>I vote to keep on talking!</p>
<p>Good Lord! I remember another thread that focussed on sons’ not picking up their telephones. Now, if and when they do, we’ve got to talk to them about their sex life? I think I’ll pass that one to DH.</p>
<p>As in all things, family styles and family needs seem to differ. Here’s to raising all our kids to make wise decisions.</p>
<p>I agree, Mythmom. This is a topic that no one will have any sort of consensus on. Its extremely personal and we’re all trying to do our best.(Where’s that chastity belt?) Only kidding!</p>
<p>If I started a conversation with my kids with “Let’s talk about sex…” they would die laughing. However, the topic always manages to creep in when they start talking about what they see at school and the poor choices some of them make. I mainly try to be a sounding board…and when I’m driving and they are in the back seat, they seem to open up a LOT. This obviously won’t work in college, though…</p>
<p>I’m less concerned about “what they do” in a relationship than with “what kind of person they are” when dealing with others.</p>
<p>“This is a topic that no one will have any sort of consensus on.”</p>
<p>Oh, I think we can reach a consensus that, with the exception of the nuns and such (and maybe not even them), they’ll/we’ll all have sex. Some will have wonderful sex in a loving marriage, some will have lousy sex in a wonderful marriage, some will have wonderful sex in a lousy marriage, some will have lousy sex in a lousy marriage, some will have wonderful sex in a loving long-term relationship (x4, etc.), some will have wonderful sex in a loving short-term relationship (x4, etc.), some will have wonderful sex with virtually no relationship at all (x4, etc.) </p>
<p>Now as to whether there will be any kids involved, this gets even more complicated. ;)</p>
<p>^^LOL, mini, you’ve got me singing along there.
ANd, you can please some of the people all the time, all the people some of the time, but you can’t please the entire team. :D</p>