I never understood why middle class family with the financial limitaions (like ours) would push a child into expensive college anyway. what is the point? I do not agree that kids get “educated” at college. People get educated if they want to, in some area and they will not get educated if they do not want to. The purpose of college is to get “eligible” for the next step that requires college degree. Many jobs require 4 year degree, ALL Graduate schools require a 4 year degree. There is also “brain washing” process in colleges that I am completely against. And, yes, some people call this process an “education”. Fine, you want your kid to be educated this way, your choice, not for my family though.
But anyway, anybody who is eligible to get accepted to Yale, Duke,…etc. would get several full tuition / full ride Merit offers at other places. So, why in a world to stretch the family resources to pay for Yale or Duke or Harvard? D. met many of graduates from the top Elite colleges and in fact Graduate schools who attended Med. School in her class. Everybody was on the same footing, everybody’s success continued to be determined by their personal effort, including those few PhD’s, lawyers, Masters of Science…etc. in her class. My simpleton kid who graduted from in-state public that she attended on the full tuition Merit award, was NOT inferior to anybody in her Medical School class, not a single person there had any advantage over her and she happened to be also one of the youngest, never having any gap year.
There are very few fields where the name of the UG is important. For most careers, it is not, by far not at all. One of them is in fact CS, that is mentioned above. And I happened to be in this field for over 35 years. Exciting job, good pay, many do not want to retire, too entertaining, but NOBODY ever cared about the name of the college that I have attended. I had worked for 9 employers, you have to learn anew at each job anyway. College just gives you some background, will teach several languages, the rest is up to you to learn at every place, mostly on your own. Actually my most important CS training was in my first 2 years at CC. That was the most challenging, most exciting, the rest was just for getting “paper”, including my Grad. degree.
Because some people are obsessed with prestige. I’m afraid it’s really that simple.
It’s about trying to impress others. No kid wants to tell his friends he’s going to Tailgate State when his friends are going to Harvard, Princeton, etc. The average 17/18 year old kid doesn’t have the mental maturity to realize that one doesn’t need a degree from an elite university to be happy and/or successful in life.
It’s like telling people you bought a Subaru instead of an Audi. Subaru may not have the same prestige as Audi, but it still gets the job done.
Yale’s economics department is more math oriented than Duke’s. Yale offers two intermediate microeconomics options, one with calculus and one with multivariable calculus. Duke offers an intermediate microeconomics course where (according to a recent syllabus) “Calculus is a co-requisite, but you will not be required to use it in your work for this course.”
Post #302 comment made me even more proud of my D. Thanks!
“The average 17/18 year old kid doesn’t have the mental maturity to realize that one doesn’t need a degree from an elite university to be happy and/or successful in life.” - apparently D. possessed mental maturity when she commented: “I will do fine anywhere”, but frankly, nobody doubted that. Advisors always push, they are up to preserving their own reputation, “Oh, how is that you did not place your #1 into Harvard, you must be bad!!”, the answer is that this kid knew exactly what she wanted, did not lsten to anybody and achieved at every place and at every next step,…relyng strictly on her own hard working ethic and nothing else. But if anybody is up to reaching her goal, your own self is what they got, no place will do it for them, and that is the “ugly” truth.
Miami- thrilled it worked out for you.
@ucbalumnus, I know we have headed off topic, but I agree with your statement. Yale’s PhD economics program is very mathematical. What I meant was that the average kid is not going to be deeply affected by which school he/she goes to in econ. Yale’s department is ranked 7th by USNWR (hold your nose) and Duke’s is ranked 19th. Probably a higher percentage of distinguished faculty at Yale. But for the average kid it won’t make a difference and the really strong kid who wants to go to econ grad school, well he/she will have to take a bunch of math classes (which he/she should do anyway).
blossom,
Thanks! it would work out for ANY hard working kid, no exceptions.
I don’t think it’s always that simple. I think there are many who believe that their opportunities after graduation will be better if they walk into an interview with a degree from an IVY or Stanford/MIT/Duke rather than from a less “prestigious” institution. And in some cases, they may be right.
Others may believe that the quality of the education is better due to attracting the “best” professors, or they may believe that being in an environment where virtually everyone who attends is incredibly accomplished will elevate their own learning experience. I think there could be some truth to any or all of those observations.
It’s not ALWAYS about pedigree rather than substance.
Miami, it worked out for my kids as well- each of whom took a different path than your D. We were full pay for the so-called “prestige” schools- one kid got employer to fund grad school (100% plus a living stipend), one kid doesn’t need grad school at all- launched into a professional career with just a BA in a so called “useless” humanities degree with phenomenal advancement, financial incentives for future success, etc.
Different paths. They are solid citizens, they work hard, they pay their taxes, they are saving for their futures… hard to argue with the results. Especially for kids who can get someone else to fund grad school- what’s not to like?
Opportunities for certain jobs, sure. I would agree with you there.
It can also work in reverse though, which is something some kids and parents don’t realize. For some jobs, having a degree from a more “normal” university may actually provide you with more opportunities. Elite school graduates come with hefty price tags, and that price doesn’t always equate to more or better quality work. That eager state school grad will be chomping at the bit to prove his/her worth, and employers recognize this.
OMG you guys are talking Duke, Harvard, Yale. I was just talking Cal State vs. UCs. I think public colleges are where the majority of the work force comes from. And I think that when it comes to getting jobs, it does not matter where you went. What matters is work ethics, values, and the ability to transform knowledge into working skills. While I do believe that some of those who major in non career oriented jobs do go on to become successful, just like some who did not got to college, that’s not the majority. So I think it’s wise to advice our kids to pursue a career oriented degree. That’s my opinion and the rule in our family. Our income is such that we don’t qualify for aid, so we have to inevitably get in debt. I know it sounds terrible to some but I won’t get in debt over a degree that won’t have a higher probability of employment. And like I said before, they can always do a minor or masters in what ever they want. Like I mentioned, I’m an immigrant and come from poverty. I have really struggled and have managed to become middle class. I also just finished my degree last year. So my goal is to raise my sons to continue and improve the change I started in our family. I believe that giving them realistic, concrete, and verifiable employment numbers by degree is important. They have to know ahead of time if they will be marketable after they graduate.
We had to do this with our son. He loves films and wanted to be a film critic. We urged him to learn how to make films and learn all the skills involved in making a film (budget management, production, filming, editing, etc.). We felt that a film and TV production degree would deem him more employable than a film critical studies degree. Plus he would probably be better equipped to critique movies if he ever got lucky enough to land that job. Long story short, he graduated last year (same time as me 
and at 22 he is a film editor making over $60K and he is a sought after production designer for low budget music videos. The film and TV production degree, coupled with many hands-on internships, equipped him to graduate and land a job. He is paying back his student loans on his own and actually thanked me for the guidance.
lies… my mom will literally not let me even apply anywhere far away from home unless its an ivy or equivalent… first of all, I cannot get into an ivy and I hate the state I live in!
Parenting isn’t making the choice for them, it’s raising them to make it for themselves. If you don’t understand that maybe your kid wants to be happy for 4 years, you’re not parenting, you’re just telling them what to do.
Thoughts about this issue:
- It is important that the student choose the school because when they have a terrible day there, it needs to be the place they chose and not the place you chose for them. If you choose it for them, they will not feel as responsible. It is important for all parties that they own that decision. I did a lot of questioning and challenging but in the end she decided where she was going.
- Whether an expensive private college is right for them and is worth the money is a complicated issue. In a lot of cases, an Ivy will cost less than a state school if the family has a low income.
- Very top students may have difficulty fitting in at an average school. It may make a lot of sense for certain kids to seek a top school where the workload and challenge level are significantly higher.
- It is fashionable to say that college brand does not matter in CS, but the truth is that it does. Would Marissa Mayer would be heading Yahoo in her 30's if she studied CS at a community college instead of Stanford? For graduate schools medical schools put very little premium on undergraduate college, business and engineering schools seem to put a higher premium on it. You can have a great career from almost any school, but that does not mean that attending Harvard, Stanford, MIT, or Penn did not confer a level of advantage.
- The idea that you learn just as much at any college is false in many subjects. Math is an excellent example. At top colleges single variable calculus is a one semester course, and followed by a one semester course covering multi-variable calculus. In contrast, at many colleges, these topics are one year each. Furthermore, at a top college many students will skip both of these because they already know how to do both of them and are able to test out. That is a significant difference.
- I agree with the poster that encourages his kids to think about job opportunities when choosing a college. That is an important part of the equation for those of us with limited resources. It isn't the only thing that matters, but it is one thing that matters and supports an informed decision.
Presumably, a CC student who wants to complete a bachelor’s degree in CS would complete it by transferring to a four year school (possibly Stanford, although it is a reach at the transfer level just like it is at the frosh level).
Very few colleges have all of single variable calculus as a one semester course. The only ones I can find are MIT (most students have had high school calculus; extra theory version optional), Caltech (extra theory, requires high school calculus as a prerequisite), and Harvey Mudd (similar to Caltech).
Some other schools expect single variable calculus to be completed in the first semester (WUStL engineering, UPenn), but that assumes that calculus 1 has already been covered in high school / AP credit, so the expected starting course is a relatively typical calculus 2 course (so starting in calculus 1 in college is seen as “remedial”).
Stanford does offer its 10 (quarter) unit single variable calculus course in either 2 quarter (5 + 5 units) or 3 quarter (3 + 3 + 4 units) versions, with math-heavy majors expected to take the 2 quarter version (possibly starting in the second quarter if with qualifying AP credit). Some UCs finish single variable calculus in 25 weeks (instead of 30 weeks for 2 semesters or 3 quarters) and use the remaining 5 weeks to introduce multivariable calculus or differential equations. But these are not as accelerated as packing all of single variable calculus in one semester, especially for students coming in without high school calculus.
Agree that being an academic outlier may be an issue, particularly at a smaller school where the number of academic outliers may not be sufficient to get the school to offer honors or otherwise more suitable courses for academic outliers. But acceleration of math courses are not the best example; rather it may be the depth, harder problems, etc. that may differ (in math or other subjects), though that is somewhat less obvious from catalog descriptions (and it is not always the case that every course in the more selective school is more rigorous than the same course in the less selective school).
@ucbalumnus “Presumably, a CC student who wants to complete a bachelor’s degree in CS would complete it by transferring to a four year school (possibly Stanford, although it is a reach at the transfer level just like it is at the frosh level).”
True, but I am just comment on the fact that a brand like Stanford’s, or other top schools, can create opportunities for graduates that would not be available to most students.
@ucbalumnus "Very few colleges have all of single variable calculus as a one semester course.
Yes, they are all very top colleges. My point is that students at these schools are expected to achieve more than a typical college student would be able to handle. It is not true that students are learning the same things at the same pace at all schools. That is just not possible. There is no way that courses at a school with a 20 ACT average can possibly cover the same material at the same rate that courses do at a school with a 32 ACT average. The base level of knowledge is too disparate between the two groups.
@ucbalumnus " it is not always the case that every course in the more selective school is more rigorous than the same course in the less selective school)."
That is definitely true, some courses will not be tougher, but in aggregate, especially in more technical or science focused fields, more is generally expected of the students at a top school. More homework hours, more study time, and more competition for grades.
But only three of them. Other “top” colleges do not compress single variable calculus into one semester.
The two that I am familiar with are MIT and Penn. Both cover material at a pace and depth that is not achieveable by typical college students.You are right though that math 104 at Penn, although it is the base level class, does assume that students have some basic familiarity with Calculus.
At admitted student days at Penn the CS professors cautioned that most students with a 5 on BC Calc should still begin with math 104 unless they can pass the final exam for math 104, because it is more rigorous than most students will have experienced.
Looking at http://www.math.upenn.edu/ugrad/advising.html , it looks like Penn’s calculus courses are fairly ordinary when compared to those of other schools:
Math 103 = calculus 1 (for students without high school calculus)
Math 104 = calculus 2 (for students with high school calculus, which Penn expects most students to come in with)
Math 114 = calculus 3 (multivariable calculus, may take after a 5 on AP calculus BC)
In general, students considering taking more advanced courses after skipping with AP credit should try the old final exams of the courses that may be skipped to check their knowledge.
For the people who say that “there’s no such thing as an inferior school, only a sub-par student”:
Not so. Having gone to several places for secondary education, there is a huge difference in job placement, faculty, peers, etc. between schools. A student can (but, of course, isn’t always) be helped tremendously by being in an “elite” school, and the outcome can be much more favorable for the student than elsewhere, regardless of the innate abilities or work ethic of the student. For example, one of my high school classmates had an 1100 SAT but got into Princeton because her uncle was a trustee. She has a Princeton stamp on her for life, and it’s been very useful for her.
For the people who say, “the only reason people go to Yale, etc. is for prestige, and truly mature people realize that there are more important things” (in sum):
Whatever. Places like Yale open doors and give you experiences that you may not have elsewhere. Being dismissive of a place like Yale so often just indicates that you weren’t able to get in there.