@Tperry1982 – where do you draw the line between allowing failure and kicking the can down the road in order to get over a (hopefully temporary) situation? Say you have little Johnny who’s smart but a procrastinator that you have to constantly nag to do their homework. When Johnny reaches 9th grade do you let the inevitable failure occur – or do you kick the can down the road and continue nagging in hopes that he’ll “wake up” and correct it before college (when you can’t nag him anymore)? Remember that Johnny has high desires and is capable but just hasn’t mastered the art of time management.
“He came home, crashed and burned his first semester home – while working and going to community college” Schleppenheimer, how is this crashing and burning? Working and going to college seems like pretty good functioning to me. Maybe there’s something I don’t know…
This whole thread is based on the idea that “success” is based on an ability to remain in college and do well. If a kid doesn’t fit that template and leaves, I don’t think that is necessarily a disaster. It can even be growth, eventually.
Kids grow up doing what they “should.” They follow external guidance systems, so to speak: parents, school, grades, even college admission. In fact, public schools run on external motivators and incentive programs.
I think that true maturity involves developing an internal guidance system, so to speak, and that can mean, for some, increased difficulty following what is expected of them, at least temporarily. I do think that some of the bumps kids experience can lead to more authentic motivation in the long run, but that’s me.
I really enjoy some of the kids I know, who could be seen as having gotten off the track, or “crashed and burned.” They question norms, seem to be flexible and resilient with time, and have compassion for others who have had problems.
I have a friend whose husband dropped out of college. He was doing community development work and at some point realized he really needed a degree. He talked to one of NYC colleges (I think The New School) and they said, you don’t need to finish up your BA, we’ll accept you into our Master’s program based on your experience. So that’s what he did.
My Mom got married because she thought she was pregnant and followed my Dad around - she had a semester at Bryn Mawr, a year at Radcliffe, a year at Northwestern and finally when I was 12 got her teaching credentials from American. Amusingly she probably did as much teaching before she got that degree as she did afterwards!
I probably should have titled the thread “Why do some kids crash & burn at COLLEGE while others succeed at COLLEGE.” 
I honestly didn’t mean to offend anyone. This site is basically about getting into college, how to pay for college, etc. Heck, there’s a whole section of the boards just about college application essays.
Why do some kids crash & burn at COLLEGE?
Well, because college isn’t a good fit for them. It might not be a good fit for them right NOW. Or it might not be a good fit EVER. If it’s the latter…does that make the kid a “loser?” Of course not! It just means that a profession requiring a 4 year college degree is not the right thing for him or her.
There are plenty of other ways to earn a decent living that do not involve getting a BA or a BS or a BFA.
You go, Moma Bear!
One thing my kids have in spades is the ability to suffer, an unusual capacity for self-denial. They lived a pretty cushy life and not one with much forced suffering. They will skip food and sleep to get work done. Two of the three don’t drink. I consider it more of serotonin/brain chemistry thing than anything I did as a parent.
tucsonmom, I just feel the term “crash and burn” is negative. Parents come on here all the time with kids who are having one problem or another, and sometimes the advice is to let the kid leave or delay school. I think it is more helpful to put it in more positive terms I am not denying the pain involved for kid or parent, believe me, but the term doesn’t encourage thinking about future turnarounds.
Sometimes it comes down to parenting. But a lot of the time, I suspect, it doesn’t. Some folks have mentioned their own examples above. Consider, also, for example…
Family #1:
Eldest child is struggling to earn a high school diploma and last school year, was on year #2 as a high school senior. Student has severe ADHD, bipolar disorder, and was being evaluated for an SMI (severely mentally ill) designation, which would get the kid access to much-needed additional services that their state provides to people with an SMI status.
Younger 2 children in that same family are pretty smart, both of them are in advanced math & science classes and both have skipped a grade and are good students.
Family #2:
Older kid is now 26. Also has ADHD. Tried community college a few times, but couldn’t concentrate for long enough to get a decent grade in anything, even with accommodations through the college’s disability office. Older kid tried moving out a few times, but had to move back home each time. Older kid has also struggled with employment and has not been able to keep even a part time job for longer than about 6 months. Was kicked out of the parents’ house once and spent several months couch surfing while unemployed. Older kid now lives again with parents. Older kid also has a degenerative eye disease and is no longer legally allowed to drive as a result, but the mom still lets the kid drive. Kid has subsequently totaled two of their vehicles because kid literally cannot see the road.
Younger child in Family #2 attended a 4-yr university. Changed majors, but found something that the student really enjoys. Participated in a study abroad program for 1 summer (which petrified the mom). Graduated in ~ 4 1/2 years and got a job in the college town after graduation. About 1 year or so post-graduation, got a better paying job in something that the kid is really passionate about and loves the new job.
I get that you are trying to show that children of the same parents turn out differently, which means parenting is not always the factor in what you call “crashing and burning.” And that in your eyes uncontrollable factors like bipolar disorder or ADHD are important factors in the “crash and burn” scenarios you describe.
However, I don’t think you realize that this last post was, for some on this board, just a little offensive. Many parents on this forum have kids with bipolar or ADHD, who find their way to whatever success means for them. The eldest in the two families you describe are not somehow destined for failure. And the comparisons you set up with the other kids in those two families is a bit distasteful, especially with the sort of judgmental tone.
I know kids who dropped out of college due to attention or mental health issues who end up doing just fine, with treatment and time, and who are wonderful people, sometimes even more so than their conventionally successful siblings.
By no means did I mean to imply that the eldest child in that example is destined for failure. That kid’s life is taking an alternate route and the kid is going through a really hard time medically. The kid’s parents are looking at “success” for their child as something different than what the traditional view of “success” is. It’s been really hard on the kid’s parents and I know that they are doing everything in their power to help their child through such a hard time. It’s been really rough for their family.
Somewhere along the way I read an interesting column or written piece that suggested that when your kid goes to a decent college and manages to graduate and find a job - that is like getting an “A” on your final project of parenting. We all want that “A+”.
IMHO we have to stop looking at one pathway to fulfillment and/or success.
Students flame out of college, or don’t go at all, for many different reasons, not the least of which that it is not something everyone should do. Maybe if we didn’t try to cram most young adults through that mold . . . ??
Self-supporting, healthy, and happy. That’s all I hope for my kids. And if they need help with the first one due to unforeseen circumstances now and then, we’re here to help. That’s what family is for.
My sister was a crash and burn. She did fine in hs, dropped out of college, has cut us out of her life, etc.
I did the exact opposite.
Why? Just different people. That’s all.
I have one adult D whom a friend predicted would crash and burn. Her saying so directly to me is a very painful memory. She thought her own kids were much better adjusted while mine had anxiety that she thought D could overcome if she simply tried harder. D actually has medical issues which cause or contribute to her anxiety but friend did not believe it. Ugh.
Anyway, D went away to school, graduated and is now living away from home on a professional internship. Last year she traveled abroad by herself!!! She doesn’t ask for money either!
She worked a lot on getting consistent treatment and therapy, before and throughout college. She’s had serious medical scares in the meanwhile and losses from friends and family members dying, but she has been able to develop strong coping skills to get through it all.
Meanwhile, friend’s kids are fine. They stay close to home, take a few classes at a time, and are happy that way.
I had another friend who told her kids my D18 would not do well in high school, and her kids went right to D to tell her. It was especially hurtful because we were very close to the family at the time. Well, here we are three years later. D has a 4.6 and is in the top 3%. But she is very reserved and unassuming so even teachers seem to underestimate her abilities until they get to know her. Most of all, she’s got an incredible work ethic.
@MACmiracle Sounds like you need some new friends!
@MACmiracle - it just goes to show that your friends shouldn’t count their chickens until they’re hatched. Or at least they shouldn’t count YOUR chickens too early!
@compmom I don’t get the offense really… my older dd has mental health issues and an LD - she definitely did the crash and burn. It is what it is -and I know I did the best I could. It doesn’t make her a BAD person that it happened or that we say it happened. Despite her challenges, she still needed (needs) to take responsibility and my kid so far really kind of hasn’t. She needs to take her medication, get counseling, make some kind of education a priority or live with the consequences and not blame others. She absolutely crashed and burned and I am not offended by someone saying so at all.
I’ve met lots of people who crashed and burned being in the military. Too much freedom and not enough discipline were the most common reason given.
Some people need to experience the school of hard knocks first before they get serious about college. They just took a different path to finally get their degree.
My first NCO showed me his first set of grades from colleges after he got back from Vietnam, 0.6 GPA. 15 years later got serious and got his BA. He was working on his masters when i met him.
Some smart kids never learned how to study. Go to a difficult school where all the kids are smart and don’t do well.
Some people need an external motivation for them to make it through. Once they are told they can’t make it, that is the fire,motivation, they use to make through. Heard this mostly from academy graduates.
He sounds almost exactly like a former colleague who by his own account “drank and partied away his scholarship” to the point of being invited to leave by his college. His parents gave him the choice of getting a job or enlisting in the military.
He chose the latter and in the course of his 8 year Army career, rose to NCO rank, served in the first OIF, served a stint as a drill sergeant, and strongly encouraged by his chain of command to go to OCS and come back as an officer. However, by the time the last came around, he was ready for a change.
Second stint in college, graduated with a respectable GPA. When I met him, he was a summer associate about to enter his last year of law school.
I’ve also heard of accounts of soldiers/Service Academy cadets who crashed and burned because they were a bad fit for the strict military regimentation. Especially in basic training/Service Academy training environments.
I think a lot of it has to do with high expectations from parents and adults and a very narrow definition of what “success” is - get good grades in HS, go directly to college after HS, get good grades there, finish in 4 years, go to grad school and/or get a high-paying job.
These kids are still writing their stories. As far as I can see, none of them have “crashed and burned.”
My husband has a story like this. The long story short, he went to college, performed poorly for four years, lost his scholarship, got into a little trouble with the law, went to the Air Force, served four years, went to Columbia as a non-traditional student, finished his BA in May of last year and is working a good job in an ed tech company now. If someone had judged him 4 years out of high school…he wouldn’t have looked so good.
Student #1 sounds like maybe she was burned out on school after four years with good grades and “lots of extracurriculars,” honors and AP classes and a sport.
- Performance is a spectrum, not a category.
- Standardized tests are not alone a good way to figure out students’ capabilities and talents, especially since we know that they’re correlated with all sorts of non-performance related things like race and socioeconomic status.