Why does Kelley get no respect?

<p>Maybe it's just because I live in Texas, but I am curious as to why Kelley gets no respect as the top 10 undergraduate business school that it is. The students at my school who are studying business are all about Ross, UVA, McCombs and Penn. Those are all fine schools obviously, but why do I always get the question: Why Indiana? </p>

<p>I mean, I am not obsessed with rankings like most of these kids are, but they just won't accept that Kelley is a top ten program as U.S. News rates it. There are obviously many other great things about it such as I-core and the IB workshop, but I can't seem to get anyone to buy into it. </p>

<p>Has anyone else had similar experiences with Kelley?</p>

<p>That's surely not the case in Indiana!</p>

<p>In comparison to places like Penn's Wharton School of Business though, Kelly is not so hot. Penn's business is just crazy good. But overall, IU has a very well-respected business school around the globe; I talked to some friends from NY that are obsessed with IU. Maybe it's just your area.</p>

<p>This is soley my opinion and not based on anything more than a couple conversations I have had with people, but I think perhaps Indiana's overall ranking lowers people's perception of Kelley.</p>

<p>In the end, I care about getting a good job and having fun in college (not what my peers think of the school I attend). Indiana is the perfect place to do this; IU has different workshops to help you lauch your career, and the overall atmosphere and personalities of people make sure you will enjoy your time here.</p>

<p>Plus, John Mellencamp is from Bloomington. I mean, COME ON!</p>

<p>First, allow me to offer some personal background, which I think is germane to your question.</p>

<p>I just visited IU for the first time last month, with my wife and daughter (who is a direct admit to Kelley Business). This could well be the school for her.</p>

<p>I have an MBA in Finance and Accounting and have managed large global businesses for several top global companies/well known brand names. Because of this, I have recruited and hired large numbers of executives over the years, having started out in Wall Street as a Financial Analyst and gone on to manage a Billion $ global P&L. I did not graduate from a 10 or top 20 school, but have worked with and hired top name university talent, extensively, over the years.</p>

<p>First, in all my years, I had never heard of Kelley or IU, until I came across the BW and US News rankings. I don't believe I have come across a resume in the financial services industry of a Kelley grad or Kelley MBA, at least that I can remember. I have no idea why. However, I was surprised to see the impressive alumni list that includes Kelley of Steak and Shake, Chambers of Cisco, and Cuban of Mavericks/Broadcom.</p>

<p>So, why is Kelley not well known? Having visited Kelley and IU, I was quite impressed, and believe it is one of the best run business schools, managerially speaking. So, let me offer my thoughts on why Kelley is fairly unknown, outside of Indiana/Chicago.</p>

<p>Location: If you look at the top business schools, the vast majority are all in major cities/metro areas. Boston Metro, New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Wasgington DC, Chicago, and maybe Austin/Houston/Raleigh Durham/Atlanta (UT, UNC, Emory and Rice). There are some exceptions, such as Notre Dame, Univ of Virginia, Cornell, Yale, Michigan and Princeton. But these schools have other historical advantages/mitigating factors.</p>

<p>History and Brand Name: All other top business schools have eminent history and with that they have brand name/cache to go with it. This generally needs not just 1 or 2 academic programs, but a whole slew of them that are ranked high in the rankings. IU has Kelley and the Music school, but does not have any other top ranked academic departments. This may be the single biggest factor.</p>

<p>Endowment: All of the other top universities have substantial endowment $ and monied alumni. This works with a strong feedback loop, feeding upon itself and getting stronger over time.</p>

<p>Great place to live: Top university talent combines with capital to spawn new entrepreneurial companies in the local market, which bonds (physically) with the university. MIT and Stanford are great examples, in my view. This also provides a large local market for new graduates to be recruited. I call this the 'natural market' advantage. I believe this would be the second biggest factor.</p>

<p>IU/Kelley, relative to the above distinguishing factors, has some serious disadvantages.</p>

<p>Despite these disadvantages, IU/Kelley, is ranked where it is. Despite having Purdue (with its engineering program) close by, in the same state, along with Notre Dame. I think that is amazing! Just imagine, where IU/Kelley would be ranked, if it were in Chicago or Minneapolis or some other major city, let alone the East or West coast ones.</p>

<p>As an experienced business manager, I believe Kelley is under-appreciated by the massses, and under-ranked because of the above factors. I believe this is because it has great school management, and executes managerially, day in and day out.</p>

<p>Consequently, I would say it is a Best Buy among the top ranked business schools. In particualar, the I-Banking and Economic Consulting Programs/workshops, I believe are good differentiators. However, for those in the top 2% of their class and close to perfect SAT scores, Kelley may not be sufficiently challenging, in terms of the student environment.</p>

<p>Wow! Thank you for the great responses.</p>

<p>Agree with what Quantman says and add that not only the investment banking and economic consulting workshops (as well as the management consulting workshop) have helped IU's visibility and respect lately, and add too that the business honors program (about 150 students per class) is also looked upon with a great deal of respect by top companies. A lot of top companies recruit "any major" business honors students through the IU's career services website for internship and full-time positions, so getting into business honors will put you into a position to interview on campus with some really good firms, no matter what your major. </p>

<p>Absolutely no question that Kelley is a huge bargain compared to traditionally highly ranked schools, especially if you are in-state and certainly even if you are out-of-state and get the $9,000 automatic scholarship each year. The automatic scholarships and very easy direct admission (guaranteed admission to the business school) make Kelley a relatively inexpensive and no-risk option to students from states like Illinois and Texas which have public universities with outstanding business programs but which are difficult to get into as a freshman. IU has tons of OOS students from these two states that have excellent academic credentials but don't want to risk not getting accepted to UIUC's business school or McCombs.</p>

<p>Quantman, you make a lot of good points as to why Kelley isn't as well known as other business schools. I'm also glad that, as an experienced business person, you were able to recognize the school's value. I wish your D well in making her final choice, and if she should choose IU, I think you will be pleased with the overall quality of her experience.</p>

<p>Based on my son's experience as an OOS Kelley DA, I could not be happier with the quality of the education he has received, the approachability of the Kelley faculty, the opportunities for international exposure, and the Kelley career services office. We think we have received an excellent return on our investment and do not regret son's choosing IU over UIUC's COB for a second. </p>

<p>And to allay any possible fears that the only students that get jobs with top companies are those in the various workshops or business honors program, rest assured that any Kelley student with a high GPA and a strong resume will be able to get interviews with many companies that have excellent regional, national or global reputations. </p>

<p>Just be prepared to start interviewing early in the fall semester of your senior year and be prepared to travel out of state for 2nd round interviews. Sometimes, you can have 3 or 4 interviews in a week. It's pretty intense for 5-6 weeks, but the Kelley profs are very accommodating when it comes to missing class/rescheduling tests to participate in interviews.</p>

<p>My son, as well as many of his friends, have already secured positions with some excellent companies that begin after graduation. : )</p>

<p>Illinoismom, great that you son already has a full time position lined up! Agree with everything you said about approachability and the fantastic career services office. I don't know how they do it with such a large enrollment, but Kelley students can always find individual attention from profs and professional staff when they need it.</p>

<p>I would not be surprised that Kelley students with honor or high GPA can find a job. What are the job prospects for students in the 50% range? Is there placement % info for Kelley students? </p>

<p>The following link has info of placement for Kelley students. I believe only 61% of total Kelley students got something (85% of the graduating seniors reported full time job/graduate school acceptance with 74% of the students reporting). Therefore, the job prospect for students lower than 50% may be questionable. Am I too pessimistic? Also, is GPA distribution available for students to assess their career goal?</p>

<p>Salary</a> Statistics: UCSO Home: Kelley School of Business: Indiana University</p>

<p>First, my thanks to all the posters for providing some real valuable input.</p>

<p>As far as the placement statistics, and the valid questions that you raise, I too looked at this in great detail, both wrt Kelley, and Kelley as compared to other top 10-20 schools, both for undergrad and MBA.</p>

<p>Due to the economy, all business undergrads and MBA's, irrespective of school, seem to be taking a hit. For Kelley, full time employers who recruited in 2009 were down 21%, from the previous year. Given that undergrad supply from Kelley did not decrease, when demand dropped, it's easy to understand why placement percentages dropped. </p>

<p>All schools suffered, some more than others. Kelley, because it's like the second biggest supplier of business undergrads, and does not come from a large robust Metro area like Boston, New York or Chicago, and it's getting impacted. I believe Kelley should not forget that after all it does exist in the Indianapolis metro area, with a Chicago satellite radius. And they are competing with Purdue, IU-UC and Notre Dame grads as well.</p>

<p>I certainly appreciate that unlike most businesses, a University, or a business cannot shrink its production/supply immediately, in response to demand, like private sector organizations. The 2009/2010 grads entered the Kelley supply chain in 2005 and 2006. So, many more probably went straight to grad school because they could not find jobs. So, these undergrads doubled down on their education and their education investment, without getting any real world experience.</p>

<p>I fully appreciate the supply-demand mismatch problem, and the quandary for a business school like Kelley, but I am surprised that Kelley is not practising what they are teaching/preaching. I do not see Kelley making any fundamental changes relative to their supply, in reponse to a change in external demand in the 2010, 2011 incoming classes. They could have done something, if they were procative, to not hurt the 2014 and future graduating classes. This I do not understand. The supply from Kelley is HUGE!</p>

<p>For some time, most people thought this will be like other recessions. But it is not. I believe, and the Fed does too, that we will see 2, 2.5, 3.0% growth, for many many years to come. This will be a long-term unemployment problem.</p>

<p>Given this, I would implore the Dean of the Kelley school to increase the quality of their incoming raw material (higher standards for SAT/ACT), and decrease the supply by at least 15%, starting now. Only the Dean can ensure the undergrads don't take it on the chin. They are not Kelley employees, but in effect the Kelley Dean, by not acting, will end up firing the bottom 25%-30% of Kelley undergrads (before they get their first job!), if he does not reduce future supply quickly.</p>

<p>Do I think they will? NO. </p>

<p>Why? Because it's a university, and Kelley is IU's best school and they need the $. Also, I expect the large class sizes help keep down per student tuition costs, in the face of reduced state funding. I have not come across many academics who practice what they preach. I hope Kelley, and the Kelley Dean are exceptions. I still have hope......</p>

<p>I think for schools like Farmer (Miami-Ohio) and Kelley that are highly ranked business schools, their Achille's heel is location and university prestige. In the greater NY area, it seems that people opt for university prestige and recognition over business school ranking. Now DON'T you're Irish up...there are several WILDLY successful Miami and Indiana grads on Wall Street (family members included) but kids around here prize an acceptance to Lehigh (a lower ranked B-school) or Georgetown. It might very well be a different story in the Midwest, but the kids I know around here who are OOS and get into Wisconsin, Indiana and Miami-Ohio who want to study business (even with direct-admit to the better business schools) opt for Wisconsin. It might very well be regional, but I bet it's not so unusual. If you look at the top 20 BW B-schools, most, Wharton, Stern, Uva, Michigan Ross...are in much higher prestige/recognition schools.</p>

<p>I think for schools like Farmer (Miami-Ohio) and Kelley that are highly ranked business schools, their Achille's heel is location and university prestige. In the greater NY area, it seems that people opt for university prestige and recognition over business school ranking. Now DON'T you're Irish up...there are several WILDLY successful Miami and Indiana grads on Wall Street (family members included) but kids around here prize an acceptance to Lehigh (a lower ranked B-school) or Georgetown. It might very well be a different story in the Midwest, but the kids I know around here who are OOS and get into Wisconsin, Indiana and Miami-Ohio who want to study business (even with direct-admit to the better business schools) opt for Wisconsin. It might very well be regional, but I bet it's not so unusual. If you look at the top 20 BW B-schools, most, Wharton, Stern, Uva, Michigan Ross...are in much higher prestige/recognition schools.</p>

<p>If you are saying it is not as well respected on this site, it is because of ignorance of many of the posters. Most people who post about Kelley have a limited knowledge. </p>

<p>Georgia Tech has weaker admission standards compared to its peers, but it weeds out the weak very fast. Ranking schools based on students scores coming in is not right. You should rank them of what the schools produce. </p>

<p>But Kelley is very well respected. Many top companies hire out of it. Also, Kelley is not a target for i-banking. But it is if you get into the workshop. </p>

<p>Quant basically nails most points about it. </p>

<p>But I think IU teaches many skills not taught in the classroom. Business man/woman need to have great social skills. What better top tier undergrad business school teaches that then IU?</p>

<p>The demand for jobs is way down in this economy compared to the height of the boom, but the demand for students to get into Kelley has probably never been stronger. Senior undergraduates in a downturn see graduate school as attractive in the same way that prospective undergraduate business majors see Kelley as attractive-- they want to be as qualified as possible while they try to wait out the recession and eventually look for full time employment. Since Kelley's reputation/rankings are growing nationally, more and more highly qualified students will see Kelley as a great bargain for the quality education and the automatic scholarships, and this can be seen by Kelley having to raise direct admission standards practically every year in order to keep regular admission a viable option for enough students. So I don't see Kelley downsizing anytime soon as long as Kelley remains such an excellent bargain for both in- and out-of-state students and with so many students keep trying to get accepted.</p>

<p>The bad economy has hurt on-campus recruiting overall, and especially some majors, probably management and lower level finance majors the most. Retail hires were 20% of the Kelley total in 2007, but only 10% in 2010; financial services (investment banking hiring, however, has gone up since 2007) were 11% and 5% for the same years. 266 companies recruited full-time and interns in 2009-10 compared to 417 in 2006-07, so that is a huge drop. The percentage of hires in upper-level finance and accounting among Kelley undergrads continues to grow, however, and as long as Kelley maintains its rankings and reputation in these high profile specialties I think they will continue to be a great alternative to the higher ranked and more prestigious but usually much more expensive schools that Kelley competes with.</p>

<p>Appreciate your thoughts and your time communicating them.</p>

<p>I have read your post twice. I believe your second paragraph is somewhat logically inconsistent with the first. Somehow, I did not get the clarity of thinking in your post. Perhaps you can explain further how you reconcile your thoughts in the two paragraphs?</p>

<p>Also, the whole percentage argument, re "upper level" finance and accounting hires, how you define/categorize this, and how this reconciles with your points in your first paragraph would be useful. Thanks.</p>

<p>This is a very cool thread and everyone seems very well versed and articulate. I was a journalism student at a top-ten ranked Journalism school...housed within a "moderately competitive" (read: not very prestigious) University in the Midwest. Coming to NY a few decades ago-and a recent graduate; I couldn't believe that no one recognized the achievement. At Ohio University, people crawled over each other to get into the Journalism school and the profs were amazing. No doubt, I acquired the skills that I needed to succeed. To this day I find myself convincing middle-age contemporaries that "I swear, OU DOES have a top-ranked journalism school." But when my daughter wanted to write (features journalism) I pushed her to NYU. She's had a several internships with national magazines, and teachers who were editors at Newsweek, and the Times. NYU's Journalism school isn't close in ranking to that of Ohio University's (E.W Scripps) But I know first hand, sometimes it's "location, location. location" and University reputation. I don't think Kelley making their standards higher will help much so long as IU accepts (at least in my son's school) 18/22 applicants....</p>

<p>This is a very cool thread and everyone seems very well versed and articulate. I was a journalism student at a top-ten ranked Journalism school...housed within a "moderately competitive" (read: not very prestigious) University in the Midwest. Coming to NY a few decades ago-and a recent graduate; I couldn't believe that no one recognized the achievement. At Ohio University, people crawled over each other to get into the Journalism school and the profs were amazing. No doubt, I acquired the skills that I needed to succeed. To this day I find myself convincing middle-age contemporaries that "I swear, OU DOES have a top-ranked journalism school." But when my daughter wanted to write (features journalism) I pushed her to NYU. She's had a several internships with national magazines, and teachers who were editors at Newsweek, and the Times. NYU's Journalism school isn't close in ranking to that of Ohio University's (E.W Scripps) But I know first hand, sometimes it's "location, location. location" and University reputation. I don't think Kelley making their standards higher will help much so long as IU accepts (at least in my son's school) 18/22 applicants....</p>

<p>The main theme of the post is that recruiting is down overall and especially for management majors (a lot of them go into retail management, and recruiting is way down compared to past years because of horrendous retail sales nationwide dating from the second half of 2008) and "lower" financial services (loan services to moderate to low income individuals and smaller companies, with the mortgage industry collapse and credit crunch that also began in 2008), but that demand for the Kelley degree remains strong because Kelley's finance and accounting programs are so well regarded regionally (Chicago especially, for both finance and accounting) and nationally at the "higher" finance level (investment banking and private wealth management; see partial list of recruiters below coming to campus this Spring, keeping in mind that many investment banks already recruited IU last Fall). </p>

<p>So despite the drop in recruiting overall, Kelley remaining prestigious in the very high profile majors of accounting (see the Public Accounting Report ranking below) and finance makes Kelley attractive to many high achieving high school students around the country for these majors. And as the stats from the last post show, accounting and ib/pwm are a higher percentage of overall full-time hires in 2010 than in 2007, so hiring of Kelley students in these specialties is probably still strong or at least has not fallen nearly as hard as some other areas. And finance (1675 juniors and seniors) and accounting (1154 juniors and seniors) are overwhelmingly the most popular majors at Kelley, so as long as Kelley is perceived to be strong in these areas, then demand for entrance to Kelley will remain strong for the foreseeable future, despite the recent disturbing drop in on-campus recruiting and the poor economy. Kelley's marketing of their top programs and continued good placement in these areas has helped keep their enrollment massive despite the economic downturn.</p>

<p><a href="http://rapidshare.com/files/441397950/csjb0107.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://rapidshare.com/files/441397950/csjb0107.pdf&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.marshall.usc.edu/assets/128/21997.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.marshall.usc.edu/assets/128/21997.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Just want to comment on recruiting a little. I have been talking with a lot of analysts and this years junior class is going to come into a rebounding economy with many more available spots for interns than the previous 3 years. Granted I have only been looking into the investment banking sector, but it would only stand to reason that this should hold true for other sectors as well.</p>