Why is Brown so expensive yet so cheap

Colleges & Universities Brown University
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<p>Well actually the reason I came to brown was because I’d have the freedom of doing anything I want. Including both hardcore science courses and fun psychology courses or whatever.
I also expected to find people who come here because they already had a fair share of general culture, and now just need to focus on what they choose, while having the possibility to change their minds, as well as further develop, at a college level, other interests.
It however feels like most people come here to escape the need to expand their horizon, beyond what they think is enough. That is why a place like Columbia felt more intellectual, and more european in that sense. Because people actually have to study. Now, I don’t need that anymore, I had my 4 years of 3 languages and literature, latin, bio, chem, math, phys, cs, psyc eco philosophy, geography, history, that’s why I came to a place where I can finally choose knowingly what to further study. Brown IS in this sense the perfect place for me. I’m not sure however how perfect it is for people who typically don’t have that exposure. </p>

<p>And again, I don’t see why because it’s a liberal education school you can’t have hardcore science courses. Liberal education, means, as far as my understanding of the english language goes, that you are free to choose whatever you want(if it obviously is available). That’s why I was talking about fake advertising. You could also call it concealment of facts(or whatever the legal term is).</p>

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<p>Alright Modestmelody,</p>

<p>A) I’m not making a value judgment when I say that the there is a definite possibility that American education is two years behind Europe’s.
B) Has Brown hired you to sit on this message board all day and defend its reputation? Jeesus.
C) Artsy fartsy is an endearing term I use for colleges like Brown –the type of college I want to spend the next four years of my life at. It’s not meant to be offensive. It just alludes to some of the hilarity one finds at small liberal arts colleges. Lighten up and read this article (it may make you laugh): [Rankings:</a> Vote For America’s Most Annoying Liberal Arts College](<a href=“http://gawker.com/news/rankings/vote-for-americas-most-annoying-liberal-arts-college-280730.php#poll_=AzN2MTM]Rankings:”>http://gawker.com/news/rankings/vote-for-americas-most-annoying-liberal-arts-college-280730.php#poll_=AzN2MTM)
D) I have always felt that a student’s success in ANY field is not determined by the college he attends but by how he makes use of its resources. You seem to be doing just that and I’m sure you will have a highly successful career in chemistry or whatever it is you choose to do. Please do not give more personal importance to my statements than they deserve. I am <em>not</em> attacking you or your choice of colleges. I agree that Negru will have an excellent experience once he adapts… or once I get there…
E) This message board is sucking up my time like a high powered vacuum cleaner and I have two regular decision applications due Saturday and a SAT II exam that morning. I’ll be back on Sunday when I have more time to waste arguing.</p>

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<p>Unfortunately, that’s not what a liberal arts education is. To take from an editorial found with a quick Google search for a more concise definition than I just typed out, this is a good working definition of “liberal arts”.</p>

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<p>The idea is that education is not just content learning, and is certainly not simply skill-building or professional in nature. You’re studying to learn to learn, essentially. You’re studying to become a more inquisitive person, a lifelong learner, etc etc etc.</p>

<p>It has nothing to do with personal choice-- that’s the Open Curriculum thing which says that you should pursue a liberal arts education, but that we cannot define what courses each individual needs to achieve those goals.</p>

<p>I don’t think you can’t have a hardcore science education at an institution that offers the liberal arts. Compared to many places in this country, we do offer a very strong science degree, and that’s reflected in the success our undergraduates have getting into top graduate schools across the country. </p>

<p>The difference is 1) You had far more exposure to what in the United States is considered college level mathematics and sciences than any of the US citizens have had. 2) You’re in a system designed to maximize the education for those students. 3) You had a poor adviser who did not understand the specifics of your circumstances and therefore could not properly advice you on course load. 4) If you quit *****ing and just take the higher level courses, graduate courses, research, and independent study opportunities here at Brown starting your next semester, you may find that the access to challenges at Brown are astonishing, and that Brown, due to its unique curriculum, actually is one of the few places that will provide you with the flexibility to alter your academic course that drastically in terms of difficulty (and if you so choose, topic) in a single semester.</p>

<p>So yes, you’ve got the wrong definition of a liberal arts education. No, you don’t know everything we offer in one semester. Yes, you come across as pompous, not because you’re wrong, but because you haven’t had time to see that your scope is so narrow that it is insignificant. Come back in 2 years and tell me you can’t find a challenge after actively pursuing it along with professors in your department, and I’d be surprised, but it’d be a lot more meaningful than someone who has engaged in four classes and that’s about it.</p>

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<p>Isabella, I don’t take it as an attack, and frankly, you’re opinion isn’t that important to me beacuse I know I’m making the best of my education, have all the confidence you say I should have in it, etc etc. I don’t get paid to be here, I stick around because there is a HUGE amount of misinformation out there and that bugs me. </p>

<p>All I’m saying is, I don’t know why you think the education there is more rigorous or why it is more rigorous in the way negru wants. You made the statement, I’m trying to understand it. As someone who’s not here yet, you may be misinformed or have fallen prey to a bias that isn’t necessarily true. There may, in fact, be something about these other schools I don’t know because I did not attend them. Everything I know about Princeton and UChicago suggests that the statement you made was, well, baseless conjecture. Considering people take advice from these boards, I just want to know whether there is any meat to the statement for my own and other’s understanding.</p>

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<p>You can’t possibly take higher level courses without the basic ones first, not in physics anyway. And I don’t want higher level courses now. I want low level, HARD courses. I don’t want quantum chromodynamics now, I first want to be done with electromagnetism at all levels. And since I had enough time to study electromagnetism during high-school, I know a lot of it, but I also know how little I actually know. I was expecting college to fill that. Not send me to research.</p>

<p>Ok for example, how many of you know that Brown qualified for the ACM final? How many of you even know what ACM is? This is what I find weird, you all about all the several dozens of worthless competitions in writing or whatever, but no one heard of the real competitions. A friend of mine from my highschool basically qualified the Brown team, who never made it past this round for years now. The regional stage is basically between Brown, Harvard and MIT, and only 2 qualify. Usually it’s just MIT and harvard. Actually I think always not just usually. Does anyone even know or care about this? I’m pretty sure that a football game between dartmouth and brown is far more important to everyone here. So how am I wrong about the worshiping?</p>

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<p>Because a football game is vastly more entertaining to watch than the ACM final. The ACM final has zero spectator value. That doesn’t mean that people worship football.</p>

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<p>I saw the philosophy video, Isabella, and I forgive you for making fun of my rampant philosophical naivety :D.</p>

<p>Negru, really, the only people who give a **** about that “important” competition should be the people in your classes. How about you talk to them about how much they suck? Coward.</p>

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<p>I really don’t know why modestmelody even tries anymore. </p>

<p>When a CC “discussion” swings to utter absurdity, it’s sad. It really is. But at the end of the day, I don’t care if negru thinks his electromagnetism class isn’t challenging enough. Sorry. I just don’t. And I’m going to take a wild guess and say not many people at Brown would either. </p>

<p>Negru, if you’re not challenged enough, do something about it. Get involved. Change the system~ whatever. </p>

<p>Just stop whining and wasting everyone’s time with your elitist snobbery.</p>

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<p>People under twenty have this amazing confidence about their own knowledge of their world. Wait a measly five years and look back at your thought-to-be educated opinion and I guarantee it will conjure a sigh.</p>

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<p>“People under twenty have this amazing confidence about their own knowledge of their world”"</p>

<p>That’s exactly what I was going to say about you people when you tell me to do research or take higher level classes. I’m complaining exactly because I am well aware of how little I know, and want to learn more. That is why I’m here, you know. </p>

<p>Research? If you can do real research in physics at this age…then something is wrong. If a trained monkey can do what you do, then it isn’t research. If it’s something more difficult, I find it hard to believe that none of the thousands of more experienced scientists out there were able to solve it and you will. I am very skeptical in this regard. And this is coming from someone who does know some physics. And is currently involved in two projects here. But then again I probably had a different view on what research actually means too.</p>

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<p>I was speaking towards another poster for the most part.</p>

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<p>Is this a joke? You actually think people here at Brown give a flying **** about football players?</p>

<p>I roomed with one…and trust me…nobody “worshiped” him except his teammates.</p>

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<p>Negru, </p>

<p>Attending sporting events doesn’t detract from being a serious student. Some people enjoy playing sports; others enjoy watching. It’s simply a form of relaxation and entertainment. I imagine most students at Brown are not that narrowly focused that they want to spend all their time studying one subject or participating in just one activity - not even the serious science students. Brown supports following one’s interests - that means in all areas, not just academics. Did you notice all the music and dance groups at Parent’s Weekend?</p>

<p>I get it - you’re not being adequately challenged in your classes and that’s a travesty. Sounds like poor advising and possibly poor research on your part. Did you realize early on that the classes were too easy? If so, why didn’t you switch? Perhaps the dept wouldn’t allow it or perhaps there were no appropriate classes to switch into? When I saw your list of classes, it struck me odd that so many were in the Physics dept. If you were able to take the more advanced ones, then it would seem obvious that the entry level class would be too basic. </p>

<p>You need the American version of Advanced Honors class for anything Physics. You want to study the same topics, but cover more material at a faster pace, preferably with classmates working at the same high level as you. That doesn’t seem too much to ask for. I agree that skipping to the next topic isn’t going to satisfy your need for more knowledge of the first topic - you will simply get a cursory look at the next topic. Why repeat something you already know? One of my son’s favorite quotes is “I’m smart enough to know that I’m dumb.” Sounds like you know what you know and want to learn more about it. That’s to be commended. </p>

<p>Obviously you have a deeper knowledge base than other “freshman” so exceptions should have been made regarding prereqs. Is the problem that Brown doesn’t offer advanced level courses for each Physics topic you’re interested in? Does Physics have different levels of classes? For instance, students with little Chem knowledge don’t take the same Intro Chem classes as those who got 5s on the AP exam. </p>

<p>If Brown doesn’t offer advanced level classes, then you need to force change - get on a committee like modestmelody - and make Brown a better school for you and for others who come after you. Complaining about how terrible Brown is on CC doesn’t fix the problem. Is this problem unique to the Physics dept? Putting down kids in your class isn’t going to bring about change, either. Just as you need to be adequately challenged, so do the other Brown students. Perhaps the problem isn’t that they shouldn’t be in the Intro Physics classes, but that you shouldn’t. Those students didn’t come in with the knowledge base you have - and you really should not have expected them too. </p>

<p>I was surprised (and disappointed) to hear that the Dean wouldn’t help out. Perhaps you can get that changed too.</p>

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<p>Jerzgrlmom-- when possible, negru is already taking the advanced honors courses available. While I understand the desire for strong fundamentals (as I happen to find this pedagogical more sound than the current system), unfortunately, it seems that the American system is focused on breadth of content and assumes that the more difficult fundamentals become clear as you’re exposed to more difficult subject matter.</p>

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<p>modestmelody, wouldn’t it be possible to initiate an independent study to expand the class content? Would the independent study simply give credit for self-taught material or does a professor get involved with the teaching, which is what Negru wants, right? Brown seems like the type of school to support passionate students. There must be a way to tailor the program to meet his needs.</p>

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<p>I think we’re sidestepping the main issue here:</p>

<p>Man, am I the only one that thinks Isabella got completely owned when those links about the fat bald guy she worshipped were posted?</p>

<p>Haha, jk. I have nothing to offer here other than that I disagree with negru for pretty much every reason more eloquent posters above me have stated.</p>

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<p>Absolutely you can do independent study.</p>

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<p>Okay, finished one application last night and I think with the enormous curve on the SAT II physics exam I’ll be fine. Wish me luck : (</p>

<p>Modestmelody, I thought about your argument and perhaps I wasn’t being entirely fair, since you undoubtedly know more about Brown’s curriculum than I do. However, my statements about Princeton and the University of Chicago versus Brown are based on personal experiences that no hard facts can replace. One of Negru’s main criticisms was of the social environment/general personality of Brown and its students. My impression of Brown—and this impression has been supported by my own research, my alumni interviewer, and countless discussions with recent Brown grads (there’s a surplus of them in my area because of the university here)—is that Brown students tend to be very curious, intelligent, liberally minded individuals who have passions and interests in many different areas, or at the very least have academic interests in areas other than their concentration. Brown students are very unique for this reason and the open curriculum at Brown tends to foster this type of student. That is precisely why I am applying there, for instance. My alumni interviewer described the student body in this way and added that many Brown students, because of their broad interests, often don’t know exactly what they want to do with their lives. He said that the majority of his friends entered the college without a clear direction and left without a clear direction. This, of course, is not a bad thing, since the primary purpose of attending college is not necessarily to prepare an individual for a profession, but to actually LEARN something. I have heard all the X-Brown students I know, with the exception of one, say at least two of the following: “Brown has a fun and laid-back atmosphere, “I loved my time at Brown”, “It ended so soon,” et cetera, et cetera, ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Now compare this to Princeton and UChicago, whose environments have consistently been described to me as “intense,” “cut-throat,” “too sciencey,” “extremely competitive,” “everyone’s studying all the time.” Is this not, in part, what Negru liked about Columbia? My father had students who would come crying in his office from the pressure. My brother has friends at Princeton who can’t carry on a decent conversation about politics but who are geniuses in math. I see Brown as having more well-rounded, gregarious students. I could certainly be mistaken, but I hope not because I’m expecting that from Brown next year.</p>

<p>Even the humanity departments are far different from Brown’s.</p>

<p>Take a look at the philosophy courses currently being offered at Chicago: [University</a> of Chicago Time Schedules](<a href=“http://timeschedules.uchicago.edu/view.cfm?dept=PHIL&term=32]University”>University of Chicago Time Schedules)
Now compare them to Brown’s: [Complete</a> Course List](<a href=“Philosophy | Brown University”>Philosophy | Brown University)</p>

<p>What’s the difference? Well, the former has an emphasis on logic and sciences, the latter on metaphysics, epistemology, ethics. Now do you see what I mean?</p>

<p>And I’m sorry to say this, but Princeton and UChicago have more established reputations in the sciences. This does not, however, mean that one couldn’t receive an equally strong science education at Brown because, as I stated earlier, it’s up to the student what he gets from his education. </p>

<p>I also believe that if you want to understand the character of a student body, find out what drugs the students use recreationally and for other purposes. Brown students pretty unanimously smoke marijuana. According to my brother, there are some marijuana users at Princeton, but definitely the most common drug is a prescription medication called Adderall, which when properly prescribed, is supposed to help correct symptoms of attention deficit disorder. I don’t know if you’ve ever taken adderall, modestmelody, but HOLY MOLY! If aren’t ADD already, the drug will allow you to stay up for three days straight studying and not feel in the least bit tired. You can go without eating, you can write a 20 page paper on Kant’s Critique of Pure Reason with absolute clarity and actually have loads of FUN doing it. Dangerous drug. Imagine all the psychos running around at Princeton. My point is that Princeton students like “uppers” and Brown students generally like “downers.” That is very revealing of the personalities at the two schools. You can’t just “get by” at Princeton; you have to really study study study. No fun.</p>

<p>But I’m getting impatient. I’ll hang my hat up now and say, “you’re right and I’m wrong,” if it means we can stop trying to prove our own points like self-satisfied idiots who have nothing better to do. You win. I’m hungry and want to grab some food before I have to go back to class. </p>

<p>Also, watch that philosophy clip on youtube, and read that article. They’re really funny and no one, except my dear friend IlikeDice, seems to care. And, yes, I did totally get owned by the baldy articles. </p>

<p>Isabella</p>

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<p>The problem isn’t that there is no work or studying here. On the contrary, I have infinitesimal amounts of free time with 5 courses and 2 research projects plus whatever I’m self studying.
But I don’t associate a hard workload with challenging a one. I associate it with slavery. Just like people in prison have to smash rocks all day. Sure it’s hard and demanding, but not intellectually.
That’s why I’m complaining, because people at Columbia or Princeton, although take 7 courses, do research, and have a job, still have more time AND are being intellectually challenged, resulting in them getting overall smarter. Here, with all these courses I’m taking, while I am learning lots of new stuff, and doing more work than I did in whole highschool, I feel like I’m getting dumber.</p>

<p>So what is the solution you say? Self study? Well, good thing I came from several thousands of miles to an Ivy league school, and pay several thousand dollars for tuition, in order to self study.
I said it before. If they give me my money back for whatever I’ll self study, you bet I’ll self study everything. But before they do that, I do have my rights. And I have them because I was never warned of what the real situation is. All i heard was “top academics, brightest students in the universe, limitless resources”. I didn’t know that self studying was included as a limitless resource, nor that athletes who can’t spell ‘due’ and make annoying battle noises at lunch are these brightest students</p>

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<p>I agree with everything you’ve said about Brown and most of what you’re saying overall, I’m just saying that I don’t think anything that you wrote equals better, more hardcore academics. I think it equals more competitive students, but I don’t find competition to be a good motivator and I think that Brown students are equally if not more motivated than students at most places, just for different reasons.</p>

<p>I essentially don’t think that cut throat academics = stronger academics, and I don’t think that better establishment in research in the field = better undergradate education/instruction.</p>

<p>I think you’ve got a firm hold on what is going on, but that final end conclusion comes out of bias, IMO.</p>