Why is Brown so expensive yet so cheap

Colleges & Universities Brown University
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<p>True, I think it’s worshiping because it’s tremendously different from my culture, but I always thought that an outside viewer has a more objective understanding of things.</p>

<p>Also, all the problems I address here are not unique to me. The people I hang out with generally think the same way. No need to add that most people from my country agree completely.
Of course your daughter had a different experience with courses…how many physics has she taken? You can’t use this comparison. It’s like me saying, “but what do you mean english 11 is easy, physics 153 is kicking my ass, so you must have no idea what you’re talking about”.
Agreed, my views are probably not shared by most students. But the ones who want a good education in physics very likely would agree (assuming they have seen sometime in their lifetime what real physics looks like…not people who decide to major in physics after one AP physics class in highschool). So fine, if the system simply wasn’t created to suit elitist needs such as my own, then the schools should really stop boasting how awesome they are. This is my problem. Or they can go ahead and boast as much as they want, but provide some information about the courses and research that is going on. If brown started doing that, I would be happy and stop complaining, as I would then recognize that it was my own fault, and that my expectations were simply too high to complain now.
But when next to none of the courses have a syllabus, and absolutely none of them have a detailed one, why should I not complain?</p>

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<p>Negru, I am not familiar with the physics offerings at Brown. My daughter has taken a physics course there, as well as an engineering course. She is not a physics concentrator. When you selected colleges to apply to, if you cared very deeply about the offerings in physics, it was important to research that in depth. There may be schools with better physics departments (I don’t know but am assuming). </p>

<p>The fact is, Brown is the one school where you can design your own education. It so happens that my daughter’s field is weak at Brown BUT (BIG BUT) she KNEW this when she applied to Brown. But that was only ONE factor in her choosing colleges. It is a liberal arts degree and it is not crucial that the undergrad program in her major be the end all and be all as she needs to go to graduate school for her field and very much wanted a liberal arts background. But what I can tell you is this…and this really really really really applies to YOU…my D has CREATED OPPORTUNITIES for herself to do more in her area of concentration than is offered. She has supplemented it and has gotten the background she needs for graduate studies. It so happens that last night I was reading my daughter’s statement of purpose for her graduate applications to very selective graduate programs (where, btw, other Brown grads from her concentration, which is weak at Brown, have been admitted) and she demonstrates all the ways she pieced together a background in her field. She sought out opportunities and created ones. I am suggesting YOU take the bull by the horns and do that in your field. She is VERY happy with her experience at Brown and took great advantage of being an independent learner who crafted her own educational path. </p>

<p>I also agree with the other poster that some of your opinions may be cultural. Sports and extracurriculars are important in Amercian education. That may be a new experience for you. However, athletes are NOT worshipped at Brown and sports are NOT big there, particularly not spectator sports in ANY way CLOSE to at an American university where athletics reign supreme…ie. Notre Dame, UMich, Ohio State, Syracuse, etc. </p>

<p>If courses in your field do not have syllabi…please work on a committee such as DUG for your concentration, to create changes that you say you are not alone in feeling are needed. As I said, WHAT are you doing about things like that? My daughter is a DUG leader for her concentration. She has initiated things for those in that field. What are YOU doing? You are on a college admissions website complaining. My daughter would never ever have the time on her hands that you do. Her schedule and commitments boggle my mind and that doesn’t even include being in the midst of the graduate school admissions process on top of her coursework, TA responsibilites, DUG, other ECs, and being on varsity sport that requires HUGE amounts of hours. I find it difficult to understand your statement that you have NO time to devote to creating changes for yourself or your fellow students. What you may not have is the initiative and drive to make a difference. I do not know you and cannot say, but your posts are coming across that way as you do not respond to suggestions of steps you might take. Why don’t you take some steps and come back and report how that went?</p>

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<p>

Research how, exactly? E-mail each prof of each course to ask for a detailed syllabus, example homework and exam problem sets? Of 15-25 universities I would apply to? Really now</p>

<p>Anyway, back to the thing. I just attended an info session about the utra. Summer is still only 3000. Also, I heard that students aren’t usually given the award more than 1 or 2 times - to give new applicants more chances. Sure I can see the reasoning behind it, but we have 8 semesters and 3 summers, so this basically means you won’t get paid if you continue research. Sure, you can argue that the experience and boost to the resume and the good karma you win more than compensate, but I don’t care for that, since it’s not a good enough argument, and other universities don’t have this limitation.</p>

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<p>Negru,
I realize you are from another country but generally, one should examine the curriculum, write and meet with faculty if they have questions about it that matter to their decision, and so on. My daughter did that on visits. She met with department heads and the like. I realize the visits were not as possible for you but there are ways to ask questions and probe what you need to find out. However, you mention applying to 15-25 colleges?!?! That may be part of the problem. How did you pick schools? By name/reputation? I know my kids had specific college criteria. There were specific reasons each school landed on their list. They each applied to 8 schools. They were able to explore each school to see if it met or how closely it met, their personal college criteria. They looked for schools that fit what was important to them. If certain coursework or opportunities or levels were this important for you, it would have been beneficial to have made in depth inquiries about that, if you could not visit. Obviously with such a LONG list of schools, you could not explore each one in depth enough to ascertain a match up of what you wanted and what they offered. I find that is often the case with those who have too long of a college list that is not narrowed in focus and it is impossible to explore each one in depth to create a fit.</p>

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<p>Well that’s a typical number a student from my country has to apply to get into 3-4. 15 is a bare minimum. And if you ED, you really don’t get to pick the school. Also schools like caltech or mit don’t allow/give aid to intl students in ED. So yeah, it’s not that easy for us, the “fit” thing you talk about is a non-issue for us. Still, that doesn’t mean anything. I’d still expect a top university, an ivy league one for that matter, to be a lot more flexible. And be flexible on its own, not expect anyone with slightly different expectations to have to start groups and lobby the administration to get changes.</p>

<p>If I like physics, I expect to do physics, not start groups that will in the future create changes that will allow me to do physics. That’s the university’s job. I don’t think that this whole “take the responsibility of your education in your own hands” means the university should have any less. The university should be uniquely responsible for offering me whatever I need (and especially whatever they advertised they have - I don’t think it says in too many different places that you only get UTRA a limited number of times)</p>

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<p>For the record, Negru, a good friend of mine got an off-the-books UTRA (baiscally, a paid research position) this summer, so it’s completely possible to do an utra or its equiv every summer. </p>

<p>And by the way I just spent 5 minutes and found out how many physics courses are available to me at Brown, and also an alternative, Harvard. So you could have spent that same 5 minutes before you came here to see what would be available to you. I don’t buy for a second that you guys don’t get to evaluate “fit.” I spent MONTHS (that’s a tad more than 5 minutes) researching colleges to find the right fit. </p>

<p>Brown phys courses: [Brown</a> University](<a href=“Physics | Brown University”>Physics | Brown University)
Harvard phys coures: [HERS</a> Output](<a href=“http://www.registrar.fas.harvard.edu/Courses/Physics.html]HERS”>http://www.registrar.fas.harvard.edu/Courses/Physics.html)</p>

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<p>And I counted almost 40 courses! That seems like a lot of physics to be done. Or are courses not offered? (I’m asking, because I’m genuinely confused by your complaints. I know at my old school courses advertised weren’t offered).</p>

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<p>Negru, what do you mean that if you are ED you don’t get to pick the school? ED is for those who DO pick a school and make a firm commitment to one school. Nobody makes you apply ED. My kids didn’t. Did you? </p>

<p>I don’t agree that the “fit thing” is a “nonissue” for internationals. For ANY student, their college list should be made up of schools that meet SOME, if not MOST, of their individualized list of college criteria (what they want in a college). Applicants shouldn’t pick schools by their “name.” How did you pick 'em? By name? My kids had a list of what they wanted in a school and looked for schools that closely matched the criteria. If they wanted to know more about certain aspects that mattered a lot to them, they visited and/or contacted people at the school to ask. If you could not visit, I truly understand, given the distance. But you certainly could have emailed faculty members about certain things you needed to know more about that really mattered in your decision making. If a certain level of physics, research, topics, opportunities, etc. mattered to you, it was your job to inquire of all the schools that made your list. Obviously nobody can pick which school ACCEPTS them but they can create a list of schools that meets some of their criteria and then when acceptances are in hand, examine from those options, which school meets your list of preferences in a college the closest. No matter where you live, that is what selecting a college is about. You could have asked about the courses and any special needs you had and if those would be met. You could have asked about research. Then, armed with information ,you could make a choice of where to attend amongst your acceptances. </p>

<p>I don’t know much about physics at all at Brown but just looked at the link that ClaySoul provided and readily see a lot of courses and descriptions of those courses and links to all sorts of lab information on those courses. Now, that took one minute. I could then write the department head or faculty members to ask what I needed to know IF it mattered a lot to me (as it apparently does to you with regard to the course work). Since this is obviously very important to you, I have no idea what you did to explore this deeply at Brown before choosing this school to matriculate. Did you inquire and did you compare and contrast the offerings with your other acceptances? Or did you apply ED and commit to this school before investigating fully in order to make such a commitment? </p>

<p>Why did you pick Brown? Just curious. What attracted you? You seem to care a bunch about the Physics and why did you pick this school for Physics? </p>

<p>Brown is a place that IS flexible…WAY more than most US colleges. You can take what you want. You can create an educational program for yourself. You can create opportunities. Have you sat down with someone to see how to meet your learning needs and how best to create the challenges you seek? What are you doing about that? I’d love to hear what the Dept. Head and Deans are suggesting. </p>

<p>And seriously, if this program is the wrong fit for you, why not transfer to the programs you think offer what you are looking for? Obviously you did not look into what Brown offered in depth and now that you know, you don’t like it. Why waste time and money? Why not find the more appropriate fit for what you want? This time around, really investigate before you enroll.</p>

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<p>Well, if getting into harvard was that easy, things probably would’ve been different.
Fit doesn’t matter because we don’t usually have the luxury of getting to chose to what school we enroll. You just apply to 20ish across a whole range of schools and chose from the top 3 on your list, whose ranks are about, #4, #40, #22(if you’re extremely lucky - acceptances like these would be considered surreal), so nothing really to chose there. And when you ED you don’t ed to your dream school (well, some of the foolishly courageous ones do), you ED based on the chance to get in and get money. And once you get in, and your parents give away their whole life savings to pay tickets and tuition, you can’t afford to take nice classes and go to dance and sing club, and waste time generally to "enjoy life and be laidback and simply be relaxed and happy’'. You take 5 classes, do research, get a job, because when graduate school admissions come, you’re still an international, but now also broke, and again you need to be extremely more competitive than the rest of applicants. So, please none of that…whatever you’re giving. I don’t care about you should’ve looked for a better fit, and I don’t care abut transfers, because there are only a handful of schools, who themselves give only a handful of awards to international students.
I ED’d to brown because of the liberty of choosing my courses. And I obviously asked faculty and other people about the physics department and profs. Obviously I only got positive feedback. “Sure it’s great, didn’t you know brown also has one of the oldest engineering programs in the universe?” Meet with someone to discuss my particular needs? I did, with deans, advisors, concentration advisors, profs, none are of any help because they don’t understand the level of academics where I come from. Good advice, but unfortunately not useful in my case.
That list of courses, while may appear detailed to you, says absolutely nothing to me. Well, it did, or I thought it does, when I was browsing the courses from home. Fine, it was my fault to assume that the level was the college level (again, i stress, level, not content or topics covered - in physics you can study the exact same topic at incredibly different levels and styles ) </p>

<p>All I’m asking is for a freaking detailed syllabus. MIT posted all its courses online, why should we be any dumber?</p>

<p>And no I don’t have the time, probably not the skills either, to start meeting deans and curriculum advisors and whatever to start promoting the idea of creating a better database for courses.
But because I am unable/unwilling to solve the situation and become a hero, it doesn’t mean I can’t talk about it. Just like talking about philosophy or politics for me</p>

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<p>negru posted this question back in March 2007
"So, I plan to major in physics with a Sc.B degree, but I’m thinking about skipping the first year courses (Ph 7, 8), and starting directly with Ph 47, 50, (maybe even higher?) or someplace around there. It’s not clear from the website if I am allowed to do that, tho.</p>

<p>Any thoughts, would doing so be wise? Or is there any place I could find a syllabus for the courses? BOCA or the Critical Review Online aren’t really that helpful… Just thought about asking here for some advice, before emailing an advisor or smth"</p>

<p>negru,
it seems you had doubts about Brown’s Physics classes back in March - and probably with good reason since you’re so advanced. Did you ever contact the head of Brown’s Physics dept to ask specific questions about the curriculum? I know my DD met with dept heads at her final two choices to determine which school’s curriculum was better suited to her needs - before she made her choice. </p>

<p>Since you understand the difference between European and American educational systems, you must have been aware that you were entering college with a more advanced science education than the average Brown student. Did you assume the Physics dept knew that too and therefore would advise you properly? I doubt they had that information unless you specifically gave it to them. It’s unfortunate you’ve had to waste so much time, with inappropriate courses.</p>

<p>Someone questioned why you applied to Brown ED, if Brown doesn’t have a strong Physics dept. I wondered if it was because you were turned down at all the higher ranked schools you applied to the year before - but then I saw that you had a girlfriend at Brown. Hopefully that isn’t why you chose Brown. With your intellect and passion for studying Physics, other schools seem more likely choices. Were you advised against reapplying to those more obvious choices? Brown usually appeals to self motivated kids who are a bit laid back, have numerous interests and have the desire to delve into diverse areas outside their “passion.” It’s that freedom to explore that sets Brown apart.</p>

<p>All you do is gripe - originally I thought you were a ■■■■■, like posterX. You don’t seem interested in making your situation better. Instead you just want to get the last word. It’s a shame because although you could be a real asset to any school, your negativity may make it difficult for other students and your department to see that.</p>

<p>Sorry negru. I see you answered some of my questions already. Guess we were posting at the same time.</p>

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<p>I’m acting like I am because some of the responses I got were simply.hmm, wrong. Don’t you realize that by identifying the root of my addressed issues with my ill choice of choosing brown, you’re basically saying “if you’re good at physics, don’t come to brown”? And I don’t see how that’s a solution either. If I were interested in brown, instead of blindly defending it against justified comments, I’d say, hm, wait a sec, maybe something isn’t right. If for example, someone started saying how my high-school is crap, and its courses and students are stupid, obviously I’d be affected, but certainly my response wouldn’t be “well, you should transfer if you don’t like it then, or, NO, YO mammas stupid.”</p>

<p>I did email a concentration advisor back in march, who strongly recommended me to take physics 7. Well, that’s little said, the way he put it, there was really no alternative. He didn’t even mention the possibility of skipping it and what that might imply, or what the course is really about. (although my email was pretty clear about what I’m asking). He said something along the lines, that most students take physics 5, but the really really incredible ones take 7. So, after he put it like that, what was I to understand?
Besides, the course is called analytical mechanics. I haven’t seen any of that in the whole course. So, how exactly am I supposed to make an informed decision?</p>

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<ol>
<li>Harvard and Brown have similar admissions rates</li>
<li>Fit applies for everyone. It’s more important to go to a school that fits you and is ranked lower than to a higher ranked school you hate. You can get a good education at either, what you miss at the latter is the experience of enjoying college. No one forces anyone to apply to 20 schools and then just go to the best name you could find. </li>
<li>That scenario of getting into #4, #22, and #40 is the scenario for a TON of US students too. I got rejected everywhere but #43 my senior year. It was my safety school and I had not done a good job picking a safety school, being over confident, and I didn’t like it. You’re not alone!!</li>
<li>Am I correct in saying that you have taken ONE physics class at Brown? Because if that is the case, you absolutely should not judge the level of the ENTIRE program on that class. Different teachers are harder than others, different classes are harder than others, despite what you think would be the level of difficulty for a given subject matter. And some teachers don’t write syllabi (here’s an idea, make your own since you are so advanced…)</li>
<li>You don’t have to take 5 classes. You have every reason and opportunity to do extra curriculars. A lot of US kids are broke/in debt after college too, and need to pay the bills when they get out. But the two scenarios have NOTHING to do with each other.</li>
</ol>

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<p>Back to the central issue</p>

<p>Claysoul, who sponsored that research position? Because departmental budgets vary immensely. While physics is practically broke, I know how students in visual arts and such are sponsored frequently to go places and visit and crap. Or that the CS department easily gets funding from the NSF. I guess engineering too. I’m specifically talking about awards from the dean of the college. Also not private UTRAs that you get if you’re a certain color either. but lets not get into that</p>

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<p>One more thing. I learned this from transferring. </p>

<p>When I transferred, I expected all of the problems I had at my previous school to melt away, because of course they were all inextricably tied to said school. But they didn’t. And I realized that they were me problems or they were college problems present everywhere. </p>

<p>You sound very unhappy but maybe if you realized that it’s like this at a lot of places, or, dare i say, even better here than a lot of places, you’d ease up a bit.</p>

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<p>Gather more information and don’t let one person’s analysis (i.e. the really really incredible kids take yadda yadda) dictate your decision. OR switch classes a few weeks into the semester. Yikes. If there’s any place you can do that, it’s BROWN. </p>

<p>I still don’t buy that the physics program here is bad. I think you ran into one bad class. </p>

<p>The girl I know who did research is in neuro.</p>

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<p>But, grad school is usually need-blind and gives need-aware fin aid for US students.
I’m taking 3 physics classes, and heard input for most other undergrad classes</p>

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<p>

again you’re missing the point. i wouldn’t care if brown was heaven on earth. i’d still complain just as much as long as i could find even minute problems</p>

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<p>Another thing: </p>

<p>I study mostly ceramics now. I knew coming here that the classes would be at RISD. I have no right to kvetch about the walk from Andrews to Metcalf; i knew what i was getting into when I came here. Granted, I didn’t expect to study mostly ceramics when I came here, but I still knew what Brown offered. I would like to get a recreational studio started here, but I have no right or reason to expect Brown to read my mind and cater to my whims without some effort on my part. This is a much more concrete example than anything I can apply to physics in terms of classes or research, but generally speaking, I think it still applies to you and your general assessment of Brown. </p>

<p>I mean what concrete complaints do you have with Brown except that there is no syllabi, the class is too easy, and you can’t do 17 UTRAs?</p>

<p>And since you wanted to pick your own classes, why are you not on this board celebrating “Color me Cool: Intro to the Graphic Novel” or “Visual Culture of Medieval Women” or any number of cool classes you get to pick to compliment your physics education. If you wanted physics and just physics and lots of physics go to MIT man.</p>

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<p>“again you’re missing the point. i wouldn’t care if brown was heaven on earth. i’d still complain just as much as long as i could find even minute problems”</p>

<p>that’s a really, really hard way to live</p>

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<p>^you shouldn’t infer from my posts on this board the way I live or think. only stick to the problem in the topic.
For all you know, I could actually be having a hard time getting a passing grade in phys 7. Maybe I’m not even a student. The issue would still remain. </p>

<p>Again, it would be like giving someone who criticizes bush the same response.</p>

<p>For example, if now I started arguing why I think there is also no free will or afterlife, what would you tell me, “oh cmon, don’t be so pessimistic etc?” you see why I’m not satisfied with your responses and keep at it? Until you can give me an argument that free will exists, NOT that it’s better to believe there is, i will not be happy</p>

<p>

That pretty much sums it up.</p>