Why it isn't a good idea to hire friends

I’m in the middle of a fairly major basement remodel, being done as a result of flooding a few months ago. I needed a plumber, among other things. I decided to throw a bone to a guy I know from the kids’ HS, both of us are involved in the athletic booster club. I don’t know him that well, but usually see him at the meetings, and those of us who are active socialize a bit after. He’s more a friend of a friend, but someone that I see and interact with on a regular basis. He’s good friends with someone I’m more friendly with, and whose support is critical to me being able to do my job with the booster club.

He’s been kind of a disaster. Not showing up, not doing things right, etc. Project is probably a few weeks behind because of everything getting pushed back to accomodate him, and the drywall guys charged me $250 that they told me about to fix something he messed up. It isn’t even that much plumbing work, probably a day if done right the first time. But everyone else has been waiting on him, and the problems snowball. When one of my wife’s friends asked who our plumber was, she laughed at the answer. Apparently this isn’t an isolated issue.

Finally he is done with everything he can do before next week, after the flooring is put in. The work wasn’t finished until Tuesday evening, and he wants paid today or tomorrow morning at latest so he can make his bank payment.

I need him to come back and finish next week, but am not at all confident that he will show up unless he knows I have a big check for him. Plus I’m going to clip him the $250 and tell him to take it up with the drywallers.

I’m guessing the relationship is permanently soured, which I only really care about because of our mutual friend. I’m probably going to pay him tomorrow morning, because if I don’t I know he will never come finish, and will badmouth me to all of our mutual acquantances, of which there are many.

Anyone want to put me up on their couch next weekend? Because if I pay him tomorrow and he doesn’t show up next week to finish (which I’m guessing will happen) I don’t want to be here with my wife, who is already beyond furious with him and wants to pay him less, and not until he is completely finished. Besides the $250 I know about I’m sure there are other costs that I will eat because the other workers had to work around him not being done. Plus my wife and I have been painting until midnight after we got home from work to get that part done before the flooring came in.

Rant over. Thanks for indulging me.

Ugh, sorry you’re experiencing this. Could you perhaps give him 1/2 or 3/4 of the payment and the balance when he finishes up? I’d be hesitant to pay the entire amount due to your concerns.

Do not give him the entire amount. If the relationship is ruined at this point, no harm in just saying, “hey listen, here’s 50% and I’ll give you the remainder on completion” If he gives you any problems, just tell him that is the way you always conduct business and hope he understands. If he doesn’t return, then you have the rest of your money to hire someone to finish.

None of your common friends will think there was anything wrong with that if he badmouths you.

Trust me, your in common acquaintances probably know exactly what he’s like to do business with, as evidenced by your wife’s friend laughing at the mention of him.
I agree with not paying him the full amount - this is business and he hasn’t completed the job.

Most of these guys take on way too many jobs, start them, then disappear to start another job and only come back when they need the money or the customer has a fit. This is business as usual for this guy.

I’d go hard line with the guy and hold back a big chunk of money as motivation for him to finish.

Never, never, never pay in full before the work is complete. There really is no reason to pay early. Does your boss pay you before you do the work? No, of course not. So, why would you pay before the work is complete? His financial problems are not your problems, so don’t take them on by paying early.

I can relate to this and sympathize. I had a shower done recently, and the contractor sent me an e-mail saying they were going to be done X day, so if I wasn’t there to please leave him a check. I held about 1/5th back, and I wish I’d held more back. I found a crack in a shower tile, they put a big scratch in my front door taking debris out, and our floor tile job is not very good. He’s supposed to come back and fix what’s messed up, but I suspect he’s doing the math and may decide to just not worry about what I didn’t pay him and move on. To find someone else to come and fix this mess will be difficult. With the economy being so good lately, and many people having funds to do home improvements, we’ve found it hard to find people to even come and give us estimates. I admit I’m still hoping our guy is going to do right by us, but if I had to bet I’m not sure how it would go.
Good luck, and let us know how it turns out.

It is standard procedure to not pay the full amount until the job is completely done. Don’t feel bad at all for holding back the full payment!

I just paid our painter today. He started a few weeks ago and did small repairs such as calking the sinks, woodwork and wall touch ups. None of this was interrupting our lives and as we’re not having rain he wanted to get the houses that needed outside work done. I agreed, no problem. He never asked for a dime. Even today he wanted to know if he should mail an invoice. I offered to write him a check and he was happy for it.
My point being that good business owners/workers do not expect to be paid until the work is done. Given this guys track record I would tell him that he will be paid in full at job completion. We (You) did not agree to pay any portion before it was totally complete. I would have a good time hearing what he says to others because people who know you will not believe it at all. Good Luck. His bank payment is NOT your worry.

Do not pay him until the work is complete. Your agreement is with him, not his bank or creditors.

I’m so sorry this is happening to you. It’s my worst fear when it comes to having work done for you! We’re buying a home soon, and judging from what we’ve seen on the market, there will be plenty of craftsmen in our future.
When we sold our house this past summer, we had the opposite issue. We couldn’t get the landscapers to take our money! The contract was 50% down payment, and 50% upon completion. The work was very nearly done before we could get them to take the first payment!! It was very weird, especially considering how much work was done. They pretty much gutted our entire front and started from scratch. We ended up paying the full amount all at once b/c all that was left was a few annuals to be planted.
I don’t think I’d pay anything at all until the work is complete. I wouldn’t even give him a small portion of the amount owed.

I agree with others. Partial payment.

My brother is in the business and has many stories of frustration with sub-contractors.

I’d pay a max of 25% now and balance IF he finishes to your satisfaction minus whatever damage he caused.

The problem is really more about not vetting before hiring, not really that he’s a “friend.” I’d say his rep has definitely already gotten around and any tales he will tell will reflect badly on him.

Do not, do not pay him in full. Around here most jobs are more or less 1/3 up front (so they can buy the materials), `1/3 in the middle and 1/3 at the end - with maybe 10% held back for a punch list. Lots of contractors are perfectly happy to walk away from that last 10%.

Speaking as a Trademan/foreman, do not pay him in full until he has completed the job. For many jobs there is often a holdback, as some faults in the work do not show up right away. If the job is inspected (as a plumber’s should be), it should be fine, though.

Who cares if he badmouths you? He should be more worried about you badmouthing him…plumbing is how he pays his bills.

There are all sorts of great Tradespeople out there. Next time do your HW before hiring one. …hint…they are usually the ones who you have to line up way ahead of time, and aren’t cheap…but often end up being less expensive, if you know what I mean.

Just to clarify, he wanted paid for the work already done, not what needs done next week.

I went ahead and paid him most of what I owe. I held back a couple hundred, and told him we would square up on that when he came back to finish next week. They probably won’t be ready for him until Thursday, but he should only have a few hours I would think to finish up.

Agree about not vetting him. Was trying to do a favor for someone and it backfired. I asked him a question a couple months ago at the bar about whether something was cost prohibitive to do, and he explained to me what was involved and the approximate cost. So when the need came up for me to hire someone for that job, I called him.

Ugh. I don’t need this aggrivation. Frankly I would be more understanding, but besides the not showing up, he hasn’t done things he was supposed to do when he did show up. Then everything snowballs into more delays and more problems. Both the general contractor and my wife now refer to the plumber as “your friend” as they roll their eyes.

I’m hoping by next week this is over. Like I said in the first post, this is a guy I see on a fairly regular basis, and I can’t really just avoid him. I just need to get this part of our relationship done. Pretty sure I won’t be using him as a plumber again.

The saga continues. Not related to the plumber this time. Actually without his delay this wouldn’t have happened, but not directly related to anything he did. I haven’t written about anything else, but everything possible that could delay this project has happened.

This afternoon the flooring installers showed up. Originally they were scheduled for this past Thurs or Fri, and then for first thing this morning. At first I thought he was joking when he told me he only had the hard flooring, not the carpet. Apparently Friday someone picked up our carpet, and installed it this morning in the wrong house. The store is trying to rush order in our carpet, it will get here either 12th or 17th. And since the installer is backed up, he was only here a few hours and won’t be back until Thursday anyway. My one request was that he try to do the flooring in the bathroom so I can get the plumber fiasco over with. No problem, he says. I leave for an hour and he is gone. Most of the bathroom got done, but not all of it. And I’m not going to bother trying to get the plumber here to do 3/4 of the job. I want him here exactly one more time, not as an extended project.

I still have crap piled up completely filling the room where the Christmas tree is supposed to be. I’m not really that sentimental, so I’m annoyed but that part doesn’t really make it worse for me. My wife is pretty upset though because now there is pretty much no chance that we will have a Christmas tree up before the boys come home for Christmas break, and she is questioning whether it will be worthwhile or even possible to put one up at all.

This flooding happened middle of July. The basement is fully finished, and we use it as living space. Fortunately we were able to save a good amount of the personal property before it got wet. Unfortunately it is all piled up in other living space in our house. We have been living in about 1/3 of our house that isn’t either torn up or full of stuff since July. It’s getting old, and everyone is on everyone else’s nerves. If I get 2 more kids in here over the holiday break without reclaiming any living space it is going to get ugly I think.

Oh wow, when it rains…

I am so sorry, I’m. It sure I would have laughed or cried about the carpet mixup? How does that even happen?

I think you and your wife need to just make a pact that the tree isn’t going up this year. Just take that anxiety and stress off the table now. Use whatever else you have to decorate.

I laughed, but it was one of those laughs where you don’t know if it will be followed by a profanity laced tirade or not (it wasn’t). Wife cried when I told her.

Completely agree on the tree, although not sure I am willing to bring it up. I think that’s where we left it late last night, although I’m not positive.

We usually overdecorate for Christmas, so there is a smaller tree in a corner that is currently available. I just need to move what normally lives there to the big pile in the living room. No room for presents, just a narrow tree. But hopefully that will appease everyone. W and D21 will be sad, I don’t think the other 3 care all that much. They are more like me in being more practical than sentimental. Not saying that is good or bad, just what it is.

I should have started a thread when this project began. It’s really quite comical the way everything has happened. Or it would be, if it was happening to someone else. So I think everyone other than me would have gotten some great entertainment out of it.

Just a few highlights:

I was on vacation 1500 miles away with my wife and 2 daughters during the flooding. We get flood warnings in the general area fairly often, but in the last 70+ years (probably much longer, but at least that long) it has never affected our location outside of town and on higher ground, including what at the time was historical flooding sometime in the 80’s. S19 is gone for college already, but S18 is nearby and was able to get home to check things out. He moved up some of the furniture and other movable things from the basement. We still lost quite a bit because the water level went much higher than he anticipated, but nothing truly irreplacable ends up being lost. Even though he is stuck here during most of the flooding because all of the roads were out the water never got to a dangerous level for him. He was in contact with local authorities and they could have gotten to him in an emergency but it never was worth the risk because the water was several feet from him being in any danger.

That part was scary, not funny. The story gets better, I promise.

Unlike some other areas, our water rose and fell rapidly. 24 hours after the water entered the house, it is gone. The river that you can’t normally see from the house is about 5 feet from the back porch, but (slightly) lower than the walkout basement. So some good news! My dad and I are both self employed, so between us and 2 employees we are able to rip out all of the carpet and drywall within 48 hours. So no mold issues. More good news!

During this period and for most of the next week we are washing things off and drying them in an attempt to save things. Sometimes we are successful, sometimes not. The dollar and sentimentality level required for us to try to save things rises every hour. There is also a big storage building that got flooded pretty bad. Lots of things in totes, which sounds good. But totes float, and when the bottom one floats, it dumps all of the totes on top into the water. So some totes were relatively unscathed, others completely full of water. We are all sort of on speaking terms still when we stop this process. Between things we couldn’t save and the demo from the basement we have a few truckloads that go to the dump. The dump does allow free dumping of flood damaged items for a week, so I save a bit there. I think my dad got $50 from metal we took to the scrapyard, including ALOT more than $50 in tools. I think he kept it, but I probably owe him a couple thousand for use of the truck and employees, so I never asked.

We live in an area that is doing well economically. So contractors were pretty much all booked 2 months out before the flood. One is a shirttail relative, and he came out that first afternoon. He gave us advice on what we needed to do for the demo work to prevent mold and to make it as easy as possible when we can get him in there for work to begin. So that was helpful. He said he can be there in 6-8 weeks.

6 weeks go by. Then 8. I call and leave a message. Then 10. Finally he calls back. Sometime shortly after that the work started, I don’t remember exactly how late. But we were finally moving.

This house was a small farmhouse built in the early 60’s that has been added onto several times. So the layout is just weird, which is what happens when you are adding a couple hundred square feet at a time. I could lose 1,000 sf and have more usable space if I was working from scratch. So. Much. Wasted. Space. So since the basement walls are half ripped out anyway, we decide to move some walls and make it a slightly less messed up layout. Which of course adds time and expense.

The contractor looks at the way some things were built. He said that walls in the older part of the basement aren’t up to current code. He can repair it without redoing it. But honestly it is so torn up right now that we are probably adding less than $1,000 to do it right, which would also aleviate some moisture and insulation problems we were having pre-flood. So we do that. I’m pretty sure he isn’t just trying to generate work, because I know he is backed up for the forseeable future. There are several more conversations that we have that are basically the same thing, but different details. Most have the opportunity to fix it cheaply, or spend a bit more to have it done right. Since I am already so deep into this, I at least want it nice when we are done. So usually the choice is to do it right. I’m sure all of those $200-$1,000 items are going to add up when I get the final bill.

Same thing happens with the electrician, plumber and drywallers. They have me look at something that is either done in a way noone does anymore, or that is clearly a DIY project that was done by someone like me, i.e. someone who doesn’t know what they are doing. So lots of little things are fixed just because we have walls torn out anyway, so if you are ever going to fix it now’s the time. Everytime a contractor walks up the stairs to talk to me at my now seemingly permanent portable office at the kitchen table, it costs me $500 I think. I may be selling a kidney to pay for this thing.

Every contractor has 15 other jobs they are doing simultaneously, so they start a day or 2 or more late, and are here off and on. Every contractor seems to be waiting on one of the others to finish so they can do their job. So lots of days no work is done, or minimal work is done.

The plumber is a particular problem, as mentioned above. Among other issues he is flummoxed by the surround shower he needs to install. The general contractor is flummoxed by hithe plumber’s inability to install it. The drywallers are flummoxed by the fact that they are being held up by this issue. My wife is flummoxed by all of them, and me for hiring the plumber. I am flummoxed by the fact that I haven’t completely lost it and burned this place to the ground “accidentally” just to end the nightmare.

Work grinds to a halt for about a week. I spend a couple hours on youtube figuring out how to do it myself on a Thursday night, resigned to the fact that if I don’t do it over the weekend I am forever stuck in a house with a partially done basement. On Friday someone installs it. It wasn’t the plumber or the general. I honestly don’t know who it was. I think one of them brought in someone else to do it. I can see that it isn’t really done right. Wife is mad about it. I am relieved that this little battle is finally over.

The toilet water intake is on the wrong wall. Apparently the plumber thought we were cool with snaking it over to where the toilet was moved to. We are not. So he cuts into the recently installed drywall so he can put the tubing in the right place. He has a different drywaller come in and fix it.

All of this periodically holds up painting, which we are doing ourselves. Finally that job is now done. Wife is excited that we will have everything put back together somewhat, and when the boys get home they can help move the heavy stuff downstairs.

And then the carpet issue comes up yesterday.

That isn’t everything, just some highlights. And I don’t know if anyone is interested in reading this frankly. Felt cathartic to type though. If you made it this far, thanks.