Why Must Colleges Punish Kids of Deadbeats?

Paying for College
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<p>@ kartwheelie – I think you’re looking at this wrong. The people in the financial aid office are not trying to imply you are a liar by asking you for information, they are trying to help. If they can get their forms filled out then they can give you money. If they can’t get their forms filled out then there is nothing they can do for you. The person whom you talk to in the financial aid office doesn’t even have the authority to give you money. What they can do is get their forms, mark your file as complete and then further it up the financial aid chain of command, at which point you can get money.</p>

<p>As far as the idea that gifts should have no strings attached, in this case that isn’t an accurate analogy. Often when alumni donate money it is with the stipulation that it will be used only for financial aid. At that point the college has a legal and ethical obligation to make sure that the only students who qualify for financial aid receive this money under the need guidelines set up by the school. They have to verify the eligibility of the students and having students fill out forms and verify income and assets is the only way I can think of that they can do it.</p>

<p>The other posters here will help you if you will let them.</p>

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<p>kartwheelie…please stop the ugly rhetoric.</p>

<p>If you have a disability, can you get some kind of social security assistance?</p>

<p>I think you may have to expand your geographical limits to find some more schools that do not require tests.</p>

<p>And, I do think you should attempt to get an NCP waiver since your dad has never been in your life except for forced child support payments. Ask your schools what documentation they need…note from a GC…note from a minister/rabbi…what???</p>

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<p>OP wrote in another thread:

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<p>Actually, CC is an option. Move into an apartment in the city that is an hour away. It is not much different than what many college kids do that wish to bypass dorms. Advantage to the CC route is that you are close to home which your mom wants and secondly, after two years at CC, many if not most 4year colleges don’t care about your SAT scores.</p>

<p>Also, you state that it is your <em>mom</em> that wants you within two hours because of your disability. You mention in another thread it is aspergers. One could argue that the 2 hour radius is a somewhat arbitrary number, and you could stretch it to a 3 or 4 hour distance (still reachable within an afternoon if something went wrong). It may be the case if you and your mom stretch that 2 hour radius to 3 or 4 or even a bit more that you’ll have a lot more options.</p>

<p>You can complain and and kvetch and grouse all you want about how <em>private</em> colleges that use the CSS form have unfair policies, but it won’t bring about any more options for you to consider. It can be frustrating to create a set of parameters and find out that none of the options seem to fit. Either drop some of your requirements OR expand what you are willing to tolerate. The forum here is best suited to helping you brainstorm–though in the end you will have to decide what you want to do based on all the options you discover.</p>

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<p>It is a major problem for kids who have a parent who just flat out refuses to cooperate in the financial aid process. I’ve known a number of such situations. It’s a danged shame, and yes, the kid pays for having a parent or parent with this flaw. I personally know of the situation because my husband’s family was that way. None of his cousins got aid, because their father refused to fill out the form. He also refused to pay.</p>

<p>It is unfair, yes. But it is a continuation of the same unfairness that has been inherent throughout such kids’ lives. If your parent won’t pay for private high school, private elementary school,private pre school, extracurricular activities, music lessons, you don’t get them. Why should the rules suddenly change at college? If your parents won’t pay and/or play the Fin Aid game, you don’t go right away. You find a job and wait until you are 24 and can get financial aid on your own. Maybe you pay for a course here and there and get some a couple of years of college credits under your belt. Maybe you apply to colleges like Momfromtexas describes. That is the way it works. </p>

<p>The problem is that there is simply not enough money to go around as it is, so it has to funnel through your parents. No parent will pay if there was an easy out. It would become part of the strategy of how to get money for college. This has happened with every single social program designed to help those without assets at tremendous cost. We are paying for many elderly in nursing homes who turned over all of their assets their kids to qualify for Medicaid, for instance, and parents of disabled kids set up their funds so that they get the maximum public assistance possible for their children. </p>

<p>For the OP, it’s not as though you are in that position where you have missed out on so much anyways. Sounds harsh, but it is the truth. Those schools that give out 100% of need are the most selective schools and to even get into one is difficult. Many will consider a waiver if your parent is truly not in your life, but even with one, getting a big fat financial aid package is a pipe dream for most people. I know a number of kids who went that route, and all they got out of it was more loans at high interest rates–loan amounts that no kid should be taking. The fact of the matter is that the FAFSA only schools are likely to only give federal and state money, and your NCP is not included in their determination for need. But really, Pell is the major grant–the rest are loans. You can get those loans, albeit unsubsidized even without meeting need requirements. </p>

<p>Yes there are kids who might have gotten more aid if dad who is a surgeon would fill out the financial aid form, but that doesn’t happen often. And you don’t have to be in a broken family situation to have parents who refuse to cooperate. Most of the cases I know are when a parent just won’t pay. Feels the family can’t afford it when the numbers come up. Knows the kid isn’t going to get squat after filling out he Pain in the Neck (among other places) forms.</p>

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<p>*Community college is not an option, because I don’t drive and it is an hour away, with no public transportation. I live in the country. So it’s four-years or nothing, work at the Walmart cleaning toilets, I guess.
[…]
I don’t think I want to be at <em>too</em> big of a school, and Mom does not want me that far from home, she says maybe 2 hours max. *</p>

<p>You can go to a CC and live in an apt within walking distance to campus.</p>

<p>If your disability is Aspergers, does that prevent you from driving? </p>

<p>As for your mom’s request…many parents have “preferences” but if the preferences are not workable, then the “preferences” need to compromised. </p>

<p>I don’t think that if the choices were between…“working at Wal-mart cleaning toilets” and “attending a college that is 4 hours away”…that your mom would choose “working at Wal-Mart.” I think if your mom realized that her preference is not “do-able” then she’d bend on that.</p>

<p>So, instead of wasting time on what isn’t going to work (getting NCP info)…why not spend efforts on what will (finding other schools that will work)?</p>

<p>Why don’t you tell us the colleges that you’re considering and we can suggest some others that aren’t too much further away from where those colleges are located.</p>

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<p>I’m a bit perplexed. You can’t take SATs, so how will you test in college? After all, an SAT is just a test you have a certain amount of time to take, and it’s pretty reasonable. Most tests in college have to have some sort of time limit. You need to live close to mom because you still need her assistance, right? Have you even been accepted to one of the SAT optional schools that gives great need based aid? If your biological father really is totally out of the picture, what about trying to get his name off your birth certificate, get his parental rights revoked, get adopted by your stepfather, and then things could be simplified. I know this time of college applications is stressfull. I would focus on the schools near you that you know would accept you - maybe even request a special meeting with admissions to find out how they address your particular disability to be sure the school would even be a good fit, and then go from there.
Being able to jump through the hoops to get financial aid is tough for most. The fact that you are a child from parents who for what ever reason did not stay together in a relationship has nothing to do with the color of your skin, or your economic status. Rich,poor, every race and color, all have divorce situations, and at times those become messy. Now, if you want to discuss personality of those involved, that becomes tough. Nice, mature, caring, responsible adults who put their children’s needs and well-being before their own can make even the worst situations work out for the child. Self-ish, revengeful, etc parents, no matter economic status, etc, will make things work out for themselves first every time. We don’t pick our families, and it’s no one’s fault but the parents’ ultimately.</p>

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<p>I think the OP is referring to those schools that do not require tests. Fairtest, or something of that sort. My son is taking that route with a few of his choices because his scores are very low whereas his grades are good. </p>

<p>All I can say, is that most of those schools do not guarantee meet 100% of need with grants. The best aid packages tend to go to the kids with the highest test scores. The same with merit money. IT is unfair, but that is the way it works. My son who is the best student in the family has virtually no chance of getting any merit money because his test scores are just not up there. His brothers whose grades were at B level but got very high SAT scores, tended to get merit money. </p>

<p>Coming from a family with a low EFC, for the student to take out a lot of loans will not make any sense. Your best bet would be to find a local school. You don’t say where you live other than out in the country, away from any state schools or community colleges. I know that my MIL who lives on the Eastern Shore of MD does not have a CC within a half hour of her home, but Chesapeake College has satellite programs that they hold within the town itself as it does in a lot of areas. My advice is to start your college there, working part time and paying your mother for your living expenses which she can stash for use for the final two years of school. If you do well in those courses, you can transfer to a state school, have those funds available towards room and board, take out some heftier loans since you will be virgin for loans, and with PELL money and any state awards, you can finish up college away from home. It’ll give you an extra two years to mature, get job experience and get the grades needed for transfer. Your SAT scores will mean much less, if anything with excellent grades in the first two years of college.</p>

<p>My son may be going that route too. He is likely not to get into his preferred school and if he does, we aren’t sure we can afford them. He is fully aware of this and has also applied locally. He is confident he will do well in college and if he transfers after two years, we would be able to swing it since we’ll only have one kid in college then. He’ll also work locally and commute saving some money, so it’ll be easier on all of us. </p>

<p>Believe me, you are not the only one who isn’t going to get to go the dream route. As a parent ,it hurts me like you wouldn’t believe that I can’t just tell my son he can have what he wants. Like you, he has worked hard at his school work and has the grades to show for it.</p>

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<p>Well, to start with, the FAFSA does NOT require NCP info, so as far as the US government is concerned, they are happy to distribute Pell grant money and other federal benefits without chasing after deadbeat exes on the dubioius slippery slope theory that if they didn’t do it that way, some families might cheat via a sham divorce.</p>

<p>So it is all a matter of policy of the colleges, and to start with colleges could look at the time frame of the divorce. When it has been 8, 10, 12, 15 years since the ex has been in the home, it’s pretty unlikely to be manipulation intended to get more financial aid. So colleges could adopt policies where they did some inquiry into recent history – it wouldn’t be all that difficult to ask about a half dozen questions on the Profile to get a sense of how long the parents have been separated/divorced, and what the arrangements have been for physical custody in the 4-6 years preceding college, as well as some specifics as to what the divorce decree requires as to child support and what state has jurisdiction (some states require child support beyond age 18, most don’t). </p>

<p>The reality is that more often than not, the custodial parent has a rougher time financially due to the divorce (it’s hard to juggle family and career), and it is rare that the NCP contributes a significant amount for college. This means that kids whose parents are divorced are far less likely to attend an elite private college. The stats bear this out – see [Children</a> of Divorce](<a href=“Home | Cornell Chronicle”>Home | Cornell Chronicle)</p>

<p>The bottom line is that most of the private colleges have made a decision that they don’t particularly want these kids. They know the stats; they know that when they insist on NCP information, they are often going to end up coming up with numbers that make it impossible for students to attend.</p>

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<p>The bottom line is that most of the private colleges have made a decision that they don’t particularly want these kids.</p>

<p>Yikes…</p>

<p>Maybe these schools have figured out that they can easily fill their seats without dealing with these issues. A harsh reality, but maybe that’s what’s going on. </p>

<p>Frankly, I’ve always wondered how many of these kids start out at a “NCP info school”, but then somewhere along the lines, the NCP stops filling out the forms and/or contributing and then the child is left in a bind.</p>

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I can tell you from direct experience that the colleges are unsympathetic in that situation and very willing to cut the student off.</p>

<p>It’s worse than simply attributing unavailable income to the student – if the NCP of the continuing student refuses to fill out the forms, the college will refuse to write any award at all – that is, the student will be left with loans & a Pell grant, if eligible – and no grant.</p>

<p>Plus, CSS Profile charges the NCP money to submit their form. I know you might find this hard to believe, but one year that was the purported reason for my ex’s refusal to fill out the form, even after I offered to pay.</p>

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<p>Cptofthehouse: I am not talking about a “dream” school -with low SATs, no school wants someone like me - or what they THINK I am. State schools are out of the question, I have already been rejected. But do I sound stupid to you??? Of course, some of those schools don’t even ask for an essay on their apps, so how would they know? I had no way to explain my lousy SATs to them. Now I have to explain my deadbeat to the privates, which makes me feel real special, and then I have to be penalized if he owns anything. Note the word He, not Me.</p>

<p>Thank you again calmom. You hit it again. They really *don’t want us. I wish you had a direct line to all of them - not that they would get it. Although I really don’t know who would get a divorce just for college, especially if they have to give up their health insurance. My mom has a friend whose ex stopped filling out forms. They found the money another way but it was still touch and go and her son almost didn’t go back one year. My parents divorce didn’t cause my lousy SATs, my disability did.</p>

<p>Mom2collegekids, of course they can fill the seats. For every one of me they don’t accept, for every one of me who wants to prove something to the world, they accept 10 - maybe even 50 - who won’t work 1/10th as hard, who will cut their classes, who will live for the parties. So it’s pretty clear what kind of person they want for their alums.</p>

<p>Maybe I see things the way I do because that is what I am experiencing personally. You all think that I haven’t thought this through. You couldn’t be more wrong. I have spent the last four years looking for schools and trying to decide what will work. We have had meetings with counselors, and been to dozens of schools. Big schools are not good idea, same with the city, I cannot handle the noise and the pace, it is very confusing. </p>

<p>In some of your eyes, I could move to the city and go to a CC. Outside of the noise and hectic-ness of the city, my parents don’t have the money to pay for the apartment - and dorms are covered by FA. So that would have to be a long time off and a lot of Walmart toilets cleaned before I could afford to go there and even take one class. There isn’t any public transportation out here in the country so I am realistic when I say that is not an option for me. I have to go to a college where I can live On Campus.</p>

<p>One of the colleges I am applying to just started asking for the NCP form this year. Thanks for the surprise, you know? They are one of my top two, doesn’t that figure. And the FAFSA only schools all want SATs, so I am screwed. If I had good SATs, none of this would be an issue at all. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t mind having a job, for those of you who think I should take a year off and work or whatever. Sure, I can learn to drive, there is no law prohibiting autistic people from driving. I have the book, so it’s probably going to happen over the summer. But just so you know, my reaction time is not fast, and I can freeze. And I hope you are not on the phone when you’re in the lane next to me. My sister said I should get a license plate that says Rain Man on it, so people would stay away from me. lol</p>

<p>But, while we’re on the topic of dumb ideas, newsflash - I can serve in the military! Autism is not a reason to be deferred. Maybe that’s why you can’t get social security for it on its own. Just so you know, if I’m ever drafted, when the guy in the foxhole next to me needs me to react in a split second, I can’t. Freeze time. No telling who’s going to die. Don’t know who decided <em>that</em> was a good idea…yeah, I would have to learn to use a weapon. Noise…(sigh) Anyone know what the GI bill covers these days?</p>

<p>More great ideas coming from bureaucracy? FA policy at private schools is just par for the course, I guess.</p>

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<p>my parents don’t have the money to pay for the apartment - and dorms are covered by FA.</p>

<p>I think you’re confused. If you get FA, you can use it for dorms or apts… there isn’t a “dorm” requirement for FA.</p>

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<p>Kartwheelie, what state are you in? Does your state U system consist of only 4-year schools and non-residential CCs? Some states, including mine, do have residential CC’s and junior colleges and also have special application procedures for economically or educationally disadvantaged students. In fact, very good schools like Colgate, Hamilton, and Cornell take a few kids each year who have much lower than average gpas/sats…and the public schools admit many more. Obviously, that type of program won’t help you if it simply doesn’t exist in your state (assuming you’re not a NY resident), but I hope that one of your counselor’s may know of something similar. </p>

<p>My D graduated with a young man who has Asperger’s and a fairly high gpa, good AP scores, but lousy SAT/ACT results. He was able to gain admission to several good state U’s - not the highest ranking, most competitive ones, but good schools nonetheless. When I last saw his mom, their plan was to have him start there and then apply for a transfer after he had earned 30 credits (at which point, SAT scores are usually not required for admissions). That might be an avenue for you to pursue, if your private, SAT-optional schools do turn out to be unaffordable. Even if you did your first 30 credits via distance learning from a state U or CC and applied as a transfer next year, it would give you another year to mature, learn to drive, work (IIRC, D’s friend worked for a vet, as he wasn’t that comfortable around people but loved animals), look at schools, and get used to the level of study that colleges expect while still in a supportive environment. </p>

<p>I believe that you WILL find a way to make this happen so don’t get discouraged if you have to take an alternate route…there are many paths that lead us to the same place!</p>

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<p>sk8rmom - I believe op is in Pennsylvania. </p>

<p>OP, I’ve only known one kid with Asperger’s, and he was 10 at the time. Why does it cause you to do poorly on standardized tests? Can you explain that situation a little?</p>

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<p>Hmmm…lots of PA kids come to SUNYs because they’re so close and so affordable. Perhaps one of them would work? Alfred State and Delhi are easy admits for lower scoring kids, again you could always start with some gen-ed courses and transfer when your SAT scores will no longer be a factor! Cortland gives great scholarships to OOS kids and Fredonia may be an option too - in my experience, most of the SUNY’s are not terribly numbers-driven and actively seek OOS students. There are also a whole host of CC’s in the southern part of the state and I’m pretty sure that several of them have dorms. Of the 4-year schools, SUNY Morrisville is the only one that I know is test optional but there may be others. Worth a look anyway…here are links to the map of all the SUNY schools and charts showing their average admission stats (the CC chart has housing info as well). You can do a program search at suny.edu.</p>

<p>[SUNY:</a> Map of Campuses](<a href=“http://www.suny.edu/student/campuses_map.cfm]SUNY:”>http://www.suny.edu/student/campuses_map.cfm)
[SUNY:</a> Admissions Quick Facts](<a href=“http://www.suny.edu/student/freshman_admission_facts.cfm]SUNY:”>http://www.suny.edu/student/freshman_admission_facts.cfm)</p>

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<p>OP, from some of your earlier posts you mention that about a third of your graduating class attends the local community college. Carpooling, or at least having you pay for gas, might be a solution to the lack of public transport. You could mix a couple of in-the-flesh courses with distance learning. And the SUNY recs, if you live near enough, are a great idea.</p>

<p>Have you tried the ACT? Some students do better on that test. </p>

<p>You haven’t specified what privates you’re applying to, but the vast majority of private schools do not guarantee to meet full need. That sounds like it’s an issue for you regardless of the NCP waiver issue: there aren’t many schools that are both test-optional AND meet full need, and those schools are going to be reaches for just about anyone. If your college list hasn’t changed from last summer, I see that your reaches then were American, Bowdoin, and Franklin & Marshall. American does not guarantee to meet full need. Bowdoin does meet full need and is need-blind for admissions, but is a very tough admit with acceptance rates under 20%. F&M is need-aware for admissions, and does not guarantee meeting full need. Goucher, another school you mentioned, doesn’t guarantee to meet full need. Perhaps your list has changed, but even without an NCP you’ve unfortunately got a difficult list of criteria to meet.</p>

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<p>Or is there a local Penn State campus that has housing? Many students in PA start at local campuses then move to State College for jr/sr year.</p>

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<p>Sk8rmom - We do not have residential CCs - my county doesn’t even *have a CC. I would have to drive an hour to the nearest one. And you can’t go to a state school unless your SATs can get you in. Thank NCLB for that. Except some of us are getting left behind. SUNY schools are 5+ hours away - much too far, I would never be allowed. Plus the rents don’t like the idea of paying out of state money for a state school, especially since there is no funding.</p>

<p>Sylvan - Spectrum disorders affect each person differently. My issue with testing is that I freeze under immediate pressure. There are more, but that’s the main one. If you have met one person with autism, you have met one person with autism. We are NOT the same, believe me!</p>

<p>Slithey - How can you carpool with people who don’t acknowledge your presence? Just because people go to CC from your school doesn’t mean they want you in their car. I did do the ACT, it was worse than the SATs. I know you are trying to help, lol. There’s not much I haven’t thought of, really.</p>

<p>bhmomma - PSU has three campuses with dorms not too far. Outside of the bad SATs (which aren’t even high enough to get into a satellite), for me to get into a state u, I have to go as a music major to give them some reason to want me. That is ok, I will double major. But there is No music in the satellites, so you gotta go to main campus. The other problem is none of them have cafeterias, there are no grocery stores anywhere near to walk to, I don’t drive, and there is no public transporation in Amish country. :confused: </p>

<p>I would never have the self-discipline to go to school online. Talk about throwing money in the trash… I have a friend who went to cyber high school, and I don’t know how she did it. She was in bed until noon.</p>

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<p>kartwheelie, I don’t think the southern SUNYs could really be so far…some of them are practically on the NY-PA border and PA is just not that big! Suggest you use mapquest since you’re not familiar with driving distances. For perspective, I live in the center of NYS,which is much further north, and Wilkes-Barre is only 2.5 hours away, Philly and Pitt are just over 5 hours. In any case, the reason so many PA kids come to SUNYs is because of the low costs for OOS students. They are pretty competitive with your own instate rates, and far less than private schools would be if you are denied institutional aid based on the missing NCP forms.</p>

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<p>I know how she did it - she wasn’t bogged down with all the extra stuff like PE, lunch, homeroom, study hall that is just time wasted in the typical high school day and she was free to learn the material at the time that she was most alert, which for many teenagers is not between 8-11am! Frankly, if you can’t see yourself living independently, can’t be very far from your parents, and don’t think you have the self-discipline to take an online class, I’m wondering if you’re actually ready for college. Online classes are not very different than on-campus classes - if you don’t “show up” on your computer to get your assignments, do the readings, watch lectures, submit papers, and take quizzes/tests then it is a waste of money. The same is true for on-campus classes…no one is going to drag you out of bed or tell you when to study or how to write papers or prepare for tests. Unlike on-campus classes, it’s often much easier to dialogue with the prof in an online class as they have discussion boards, email, and in some cases, live chats and you don’t even have to wait for office hours. Testing is certainly easier, since it’s done in the comfort of your own space and there’s less stress/distractions…since you “freeze” on tests, what is your plan to manage that problem when you’re faced with mid-terms or finals in college? Anyway, online or on-campus, it’s all about time management and self-discipline. If these are problem areas for you, I’d think that taking a few online courses over the summer would be very helpful in preparing you for the pace and level of effort that will be expected. Fwiw, I think that right now you’re just stressed out and upset about the potential change in plans and can probably handle a lot more than you think you can.</p>

<p>My overall impression is that you’re determined to back yourself into a corner by adopting a mindset that nothing is going to work short of the SAT-optional schools. It doesn’t sound as if you have a financial safety although you seem to need one. That’s not a good position to be in and you and your mom need to start thinking about what compromises you can make in case your original schools don’t work out in terms of admissions and affordability. Good luck!</p>

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<p>What colleges have dorms but no cafeterias? I’ve never heard of any and would be interested in knowing which campuses you’re referring to!</p>