Why people give false advice aka CC is a good thing

Parent Cafe
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<p>Why do people intentionally give false advice about the college application process? My friend is going through the process right now and I’ve been trying to give her support. I let her know every pitfall and every opportunity, and give her all the support and commiseration I can. Another friend of hers tells her stuff like, “my son didn’t prep for SATs”, and then later on she found out that this same friend gave another friend a big stack of SAT prep workbooks after her son had used them! She also told her to stay out of it, let her son do all the research and question asking himself, which she knows this lady did not do as well. </p>

<p>What’s with these people? Are they just evil? Are they “embarrassed” that their son or daughter had a little help? Are they just forgetful of what it was like? Do they not want anyone else to have the benefit of their experience? I don’t get it.</p>

<p>Thank goodness for CC where people can get sincere advice.</p>

2

<p>I’m not convinced that the person you’re talking about was trying to give bad advice. Perhaps she bought SAT prep books for her son and he didn’t end up using them, so she was advising your friend that it wasn’t worth buying them since many kids don’t end up using then. Maybe the woman felt that she was too involved in the college process and now her son isn’t happy with his college or is having issues with independence, so she was advising your friend to stay further away and hopefully avoid the pitfalls she later felt that she fell into. </p>

<p>But, yes, some people want to make it appear that their kids didn’t need any help. Other people may give bad advice to individuals they don’t like. Some likely do it out of jealously. It’s easier to give advice when you don’t know who you’re giving it to.</p>

3

<p>Reminds me of the gals who take in compliments on their great cookies, and when asked for the recipe, give it out with the key secret ingredient deleted from the list…</p>

<p>Seriously, coarranged opens up the discussion appropriately. There could be other factors here.</p>

<p>I think parents take a beating in the community if they are perceived to “help” their kids too much in general. Nobody knows where to put the borderlines between being unhelpful (careless, indifferent, or sabotaging), scaffolding appropriately (which includes removing the scaffolding midprocess when the kid seems to get it), helicoptering and being miserably controlling. </p>

<p>Rather than risk being misunderstood or talked about negatively, some parents “pretend” the child did all himself, from the SAT study right through booking motels, which makes him even more of a genius. And some kids DO do it all alone. I was very much in awe of my hairdresser’s S who described to customers how he, alone, routed himself to visit all the campuses he found on the 'net, and drove himself there. Once she mentioned to me that her H, who was an administrator in a nearby CC, helped him a little bit, and that all made more sense. But it was her pride to describe her son that way in the community, and indeed he was extremely independent by nature. He did a lot more of the steps all alone than my kids did.</p>

<p>It is more honest, as you say, to acknowledge that the process is sufficiently complex that parents need to become involved somewhat, unless the kid and family both are happy with a single application somewhere. IMHO.</p>

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<p>Ha Ha. I remember when D would come justifying her lack of studying for something. Her argument was that soandso and soandso and soandso didn’t study. Her only evidence was their statements. It was clear to me that these people (one was Val) did study. But it certainly reduces the competition if no one else does the prep or has the info. that someone else has.</p>

<p>Yeah, this is a cynical view, but I believe that when it comes to their kids some parents are boundless in their desire to promote them, even to misleading others. Remember the cheerleade’s mom who wanted to kill the cheerleading rival? Save the cheerleader, save the world.</p>

<p>One friend of mine was so competitive that she told me not to let my daughter apply to Barnard because the financial aid was all loans. She knew this not to be the case; her niece attended with a nice financial aid package including substantial grants. Her daughters had both been rejected from Barnard, the family’s dream school. When D did get into Barnard with a nice aid package the friendship withered; friend could not stand it that my kid had something her kids didn’t.</p>

<p>Let me say that her kids are awesome. One is a semi-professional tennis player; the other is getting a masters in opera performance in a very reputable, tough audition based program. My D has no exceptional talents like these, but I certainly don’t begrudge these young women – let them shine! We are not in competition with each other. Self-actualization isn’t a competitive sport. It’s too bad so many people think it is.</p>

<p>By the way doubleplay, I’ve been meaning to PM but have gotten lazy. I understand your occasional defensiveness about public vs. private colleges. I want to say that neither of my children have anywhere near the math talent of your son(s). I am sure their talent will take them a long way. I am so admiring of them and glad they are at a school they enjoy that offers them stellar academics. Anyone with half a brain understands that talent flourishes in many places. Judging people by the label of their school is like judging someone as special because she buys a Coach purse. (Yeah, I don’t really get the coach purse thing. Do people carry them in Florida? I don’t even think they’re nice, but I certainly wouldn’t spend those prices on a purse. Sometimes my students at community college carry them. I find it odd.)</p>

5

<p>But some people aren’t being competitive, or “embarrassed” or whatever when they say their kids do a lot own their own. I am frankly amazed by some of the posts of high school students I read here on CC, who are managing enormous pieces of the college application process independently.</p>

<p>I have said before that my son did not study for the SATs, and it is the truth. I bought him the blue book, and encouraged him, but he always had something better to do. </p>

<p>OTOH, I didn’t feel that I could leave the entire application process in his hands, because I don’t think we could count on the SAT results.</p>

<p>I didn’t feel that it was my place to be making the contacts in the college process. So, he has made all of the myriad contacts himself, which have included a lot of professors, either by phone or email. However, I have had to coax him to do each of these, since I think the contact would have gone the way of the SAT studying, had I not intervened a bit. So, while he has done the contact, I am the initiator and am not embarrassed to admit that. I would not have wanted to be the one calling for him though, and my background coaxing and deadline management seems to be our compromise position. </p>

<p>I know some kids do all the call/contacts/time management alone, and I believe them, and say hats off to them too! It’s a big process to manage alone.</p>

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<p>The Val. of my S’s class had a mother who always acted as if she had no idea what was going on with her D’s college apps. She proclaimed only to know which schools she was applying to but left the rest up to the D.</p>

<p>The parents (both teachers) were really expecting loads of scholarships offers to pour in due to the D’s Val. status plus perfect straight A’s in high sch. and really good EC’s. The only detractor to her perfect app. was that her SAT was not really in the range needed for the big scholarships they were expecting. I kept trying to tell the Mom to get on CC and do some research to see wherre her best chances for merit scholarships would lie but she always blew me off saying the D was handling it.</p>

<p>The parents were very disappointed when she was accepted to all her schools but got no big scholarships. She receieved quite a few community based small scholarships on awards night. The Mom was really dumbfounded that she got no big offers from any of her schools (all big state u’s except for 2 privates where her scores were not top of the heap) and went so far as to say things like “how in the world did Suzie Q get that scholarship and my Betty Boop did not?” I just had to bite my tongue. </p>

<p>My s did his apps. and scholarship apps. but I did have to do some prodding and reminding of deadlines and kept a big folder with all the information from each school. I did find a scholarship app. on his schools departmental website that was not highly publicized. S had never even noticed it and would not have applied if I had not seen it. He got the scholarship which turned out to be a full tuition scholarship. I think parents need to be overseers.</p>

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<p>Yes, Allmusic. What you say is certainly true. I was only talking about those cases that doubleplay (and I) know for certain that what parents were saying wasn’t true. I don’t suspect the self-report of parents and students except when I have evidence that leads me to discount what they’re saying. (Not that I really care.) And I thought those were the cases doubleplay referred to. I certainly believe what you say about your son.</p>

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<p>I think some parents truly think if they tell another family, they will lose the spot at a university or a scholarship to someone they know. We had a poster here a while ago who pretty much felt very strongly that everybody else was copying her kid, and she wanted him to keep his mouth shut about plans.</p>

<p>It’s just a form of mental illness some people get when they feel slightly threatened by the situation. 99.9% of the time they are wonderful people, but sometimes the selfish gremlin takes over and they become people they don’t want to be.</p>

9

<p>Okay, but I don’t know if any of you have ever experienced the aggressive, nosy and rude meddling of some parents. It really makes you defensive and unwilling to share information about your child.</p>

<p>One parent at my son’s school made her son keep a chart of every other child’s class grades in comparison to his. She very aggressively demanded to know my child’s SAT scores, and a couple of times spoke to school officials that my child should not be in higher-level classes ‘because he can’t handle the work’. He has succeeded very well despite all the destructively ambitious kids and their parents, but now my kids and I keep information about school progress pretty close to the chest.</p>

<p>In fact, when asking parents at your child’s school how their child did this or that, you should apply the cc rule. The parent can give advice, okay, but the salient fact is that many times a parent doesn’t actually know how the kid accomplished it. The kid may say he’s studying when he’s not, he may say he didn’t open the book forced on him when they actually did.</p>

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<p>Even if I felt that it should be entirely up to the student, which I don’t (I agree with other posters- that sometimes we as parents have to be overseers, sometimes to the point of nagging unfortunately), I wouldn’t have said that. Even if my sons were so incredibly independent and brilliant that they navigated the entire college/scholarship application process without any input whatsoever from anyone, I wouldn’t be so callous as to think that everyone else can do the same. My friend was “talking out loud”, questioning/wondering about various scholarships and application requirements and deadlines. That’s when her friend was very smug and snapped, “your son ought to be doing this all by himself”. </p>

<p>And if someone really wants/needs to improve their SAT scores, I’d say study! It’s certainly not going to hurt- it can only help. I can’t fathom why anyone would actually discourage someone in that position. Maybe it won’t help to study; maybe it will. The only thing I can say is the old standby, “well you won’t know for sure until you try”. And then to find out after someone tells you “nope, no studying- he just went in and took the test…” and you find out later that she’s got a foot high stack of leftover prep books? What’s that all about?!</p>

<p>Yes, just throw them out to the wolves. If they can’t get into the best schools (competing against a world of privileged students who have their own handlers/counselors/private tutors/etc), well then! They just don’t deserve it! Survival of the fittest and all that you know… Community college it should be! (a little Machiavellian-with-a-twist-of-Darwinism humor here…)</p>

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<p>I have long since increased the dose of salt with which I take most parental utterings, about college or other topics, unless I’m talking to a friend. I’m much more likely to accept what parents have to say on CC (though I know some folks are making stuff up). </p>

<p>I know people IRL who have painted very pretty pictures about their children’s accomplishments, which later turn out to have been, shall we say, exaggerated. It’s kind of migraine-inducing, so I find there’s a fairly extensive list of people I avoid in the grocery store.</p>

<p>

Hee hee hee, doubleplay! :slight_smile: I’m always amused by the folks who want to consign 17 y/os to the damaged goods pile because they’re acting, well, 17.</p>

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<p>DP–I agree, I’d never talk a kid out of studying for SATs. but I couldn’t ever get mine to, and I did have books I ended up passing on to others, who might seem more inclined to put the effort in. So “mine didn’t study” and “here’s some study books” would not be a contradiction from our family.</p>

<p>However, I’d never counsel not to get involved. I think kids who do this on their own are at a huge disadvantage–mine would probably living in the attic now if I’d left it up to him.</p>

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<p>I bought the review books for my daughters, and they barely looked at them as if it were somehow not sporting to take a practice test. The younger D did sign up for a course but only because a friend was signed up. All of the almost-mint-condition books were donated to her high school.</p>

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<p>My son wouldn’t study either–turned out ok–I never bought the books–but he had a friend whose mom is always in a gottcha mode if I do one thing for my kid, like his laundry, but she bought the prep books for her kid and he never used them. My kid at least used his clean laundry.</p>

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<p>I suspect a lot of parents underestimate the level of their involvement. So, I take with a grain of salt claims that their kids did it all themselves. They’re not being dishonest; they just don’t recall how much nagging was involved, how much organizing they did, how much they helped their kid brainstorm essay ideas, and so on.</p>

<p>As for the studying, I suppose I could say S did not study. He took a look at some of the 10RealSATs I got from him (on Xiggi’s CC recommendation). But he also had the advantage of having taken the SAT in 7th grade.</p>

<p>I would not recommend to anyone that students should not prepare for the SAT of any other exam. How much preparation is needed is a very individual thing. Nor would I suggest that parents be totally uninvolved unless their students are applying to the local college and not asking for financial aid.</p>

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<p>I have run into a few parents who seem very competitive, and want
to tell you all about their kids achievements - in fact seem driven to do it.
I can’t help feeling some compassion for them because it seems
compulsive. There’s such a strong underlying anxiety. It makes me
want to pat them on the head and say “It’s OK, you win.”</p>

17

<p>I can see telling certain people not to study for the SAT. I know a number of smart students who got confused and distracted by the numerous “tricks” taught by Princeton Review and other test prep agencies. They would have done better by themselves. All some students really need is to become familiar with the layout and the question types; for some students, anything more than that could do more harm than good. I would obviously tailor any suggestions to the particular person who asked, though. </p>

<p>As for the SAT studying / application independence discussion…</p>

<p>I didn’t really study for the SAT. I took it in the seventh grade, so I was familiar with it. I had always tested well and easily, and I had high PSATs. I wasn’t that worried about it.</p>

<p>My mom organized college visits after we talked about which colleges I wanted to see. We discussed different colleges together. I asked my mom her opinion on certain individual aspects of my applications (i.e. “how many hours a week do you think I should put down for X?” ; “Does this wording sound OK to you?”). My essays were between me and my college counselor, who happened to have a PhD in English. I showed two of my essays to my parents–not for their thoughts or editing, though. I did my applications on my own time without much of a problem and kept track of my own dates. I guess I handled most of it on my own, but my parents would have been glad to help. </p>

<p>My parents helped my sister more. They helped her brainstorm essay topics then edit her essay. My mom made my sister sit down and work on her applications at certain times on the weekends and kept track of applications and dates for her.</p>

<p>We have different personalities. My sister never procrastinates, so when she was procrastinating on her college applications my mom started forcing her to work on them. I always procrastinate and always get things done on time, so my mom didn’t worry when it was November and I had all of my applications left. My sister always liked my mom to proofread her essays and papers. I write independently, and I’ve always been more private. My sister can’t keep track of dates, and I’m usually on top of it. Different kids require different treatment.</p>

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<p>Unless you have actually experienced another parent secretly torpedoing your child, you would find it difficult to believe it can happen. Many years ago a good friend of mine overheard Dad B really speaking negatively about my D at a travel team try out- they were 10! I had always suspected some sort of competition there, but it was not on our part and I felt oddly self-important thinking some one was competing with D, but it was true. I endeavored to avoid those possibilities whenever possible and the girls are still friends, but it could have gotten ugly. </p>

<p>So, yes, it is possible for college app process sabotage to occur; crazy strange, but possible. Sad, too.</p>

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<p>The test prep debate hinges a lot on how much experience a student has with the actual test and how well their own school preps them. Some students go into the PSAT/SAT tests “cold” in their junior year of high school. Not good. Some kids come from schools that have done a relatively poor job teaching vocabulary/writing skills- they could stand to benefit from learning the 250 most used words, as well as have someone teach them how to write a formulaic essay. Some students have forgotten the basic math skills tested- they might benefit from reviewing some of the old algebra and arithmetic stuff.</p>

<p>OTOH, some students have taken the PSAT every year since 9th grade. Some students have english teachers who periodically give them practice portions of the SAT. Some have schools that hit the vocab HARD. Some go to schools that do an SAT “bootcamp” every year. It just depends on what a student’s background is that determines whether he will benefit from prep.</p>

<p>To use an analogy- I have a friend whose son goes to a private school that is all over spelling! You would think spelling was the only subject in the world. They cram spelling down the kids’ throats- they STILL have spelling tests and do spelling bees all the way through high school. Compare that to my kids- they never had a spelling test/spelling list/spelling class after 5th grade. I’m sure on a standardized spelling test, my friend’s son would blow mine away. If my son’s had a chance to prep, though, they might be able to do much better; additional prep wouldn’t help my friend’s son because he’s already had all the spelling prep he needs.</p>

20

<p>When I think fo “SAT prep,” the first thing that comes to my mind is a kid signing up for a class – not working from the Blue Book, et al. DS1 took the PSAT in 9th and 10th cold. He did some practice PSAT sections before he tool the PSAT in 11th – mainly to familiarize himself with the format and calibration. Ditto for the SAT. The most useful thing we did was to sit with him and analyze his error patterns together – he only missed certain types of sentence errors, and he needed to pay special attention to literary vs. technical reading passages. I think he went through three practice tests total – mostly by working through a specific section or two at a time. He also wrote several SAT essays just to make sure he could make the 25 minute time limit.</p>

<p>DS2 took the PSAT as a freshman, and if he has time in between football and his heavy class load, we may work with him on some test review this year before the October PSAT. He is a kid who definitely benefits from practice and understanding the format and tricks. </p>

<p>Neither of our kids took the SAT in middle school, as we weren’t planning to sign up for CTY anyway. That was a somewhat unusual tactic in our area, as many of DS1’s peers took CTY math classes.</p>

<p>I will confess I am in the background of college apps, keeping the calendar of due dates, asking how things are going, etc. DS makes all contact with the schools. I haven’t seen his essays yet (though I’m dying to read them!). I’ve seen one intro paragraph in his jeans pocket when I did the laundry, and it gave me the chills. </p>

<p>I am refraining from nagging and limiting my comments to reminders of intermediate steps that are on the critical path (i.e., scheduling interviews/appointments early and around the classes he hopes to visit, having a draft of his research paper to send to his mentor BEFORE they get together to discuss it, etc.). He has internalized a lot of it, but these kids have so much on their plates this semester that I’ve just taken to asking both of them, “What can I do to make your life easier?” I get some really good feedback from that. What I think might be helpful is not always what they want!</p>

<p>I was at college panel last year and some of the HS seniors were talking about their experiences with the college app process and offering suggestions for the juniors about to embark on the process. One parent got up and asked each of them to state their GPA, SAT scores, and how many APs each had taken. I was appalled – and I suspect the parent would have been quite surprised that the panel didn’t consist solely of 4.0/2400s.</p>

<p>I believe in paying it foraward – I do it all the time with friends who are going through this, and I have a crop of nieces and nephews who are entering HS, so it will continue for a while. </p>

<p>DS mentors kids and readily shares info about his big EC – and some parents are surprised he would do that. “But don’t you want your son to move ahead in the competition next year?” Sure, if he wants to do it. But the look of glee on his face when he sees how well his students are doing is priceless. I thnk <em>that</em> is the bigger thrill for him.</p>

<p>Doubleplay, I think the misleading posts can be useful – if for no other reason than the collective wisdom of this board will hop right in and correct inaccuracies, blow misinformation out of the water, and explode a few myths. I’ve certainly learned a lot from all of you!</p>